Minister of Foreign Affairs Nikos Dendias’ interview on the online talk show “Meeting Point” on Newsbomb.gr with journalist Olga Tremi (Athens, 09.07.2021)

JOURNALIST: Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. It is the online talk show “Meeting point” on Newsbomb.gr with our guest Mr. Nikos Dendias, Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Welcome, Minister, and thank you for your presence today because you are both difficult to find for objective reasons and a man of few words by choice.

N. DENDIAS: I thank you for the opportunity. I think that, in this Ministry, one should not say too much.

JOURNALIST: Greece – Turkey: Colossal differences on issues of major importance and I think that this became very clear during the informal debate you had with your colleague, Mr. Çavuşoğlu, in Ankara.So, I wonder: Should time for The Hague come, which means that we will sit at a table to talk with the other side, will we keep referring constantly to continental shelf and EEZ while the other side will continue talking about sea and air borders and a series of other, not very pleasant things. Can we negotiate such issues as maritime and air borders? And if we cannot, does it make sense to go to The Hague? Because everyone says that these issues will be included.

N. DENDIAS: The Hague is a very distant place. To get to The Hague we must first have agreed between us what will be judged in The Hague. Greece’s firm position, regardless of governments, regardless of Ministers, is that what we can discuss is the continental shelf and the Exclusive Economic Zone, the maritime Exclusive Economic Zone. These are the issues we can discuss.

If Turkey wants to discuss something else, we will not be there to do so.

JOURNALIST: We will not be in The Hague. You know, I insist because this raises a concern. People who are not theorists but have deep insight of things and have handled them themselves, for example Venizelos, say that the court decision will not be 100% in favour of the Greek positions. We in turn must give something. Simitis also says that the solution that will emerge will probably not be very pleasant. All these are signs that if we go to The Hague today with the current conditions, we will necessarily discuss these issues. You just told us that before we get to the table, we will have already resolved them, otherwise we will not go.

N. DENDIAS: No, we will have agreed on what will be judged.
JOURNALIST: That’s what I mean.

N. DENDIAS: That’s obvious.

JOURNALIST: Otherwise, we will not go. If the Turks do not tell us in advance that: look, we will not raise the issue of sea and air borders, if they do not assure us on it, we will not go. That’s what I’m saying.

N. DENDIAS: When we refer to maritime borders we are talking about the extent of territorial waters. The extent of the territorial waters is determined by International Law, by the International Law of the Sea. UNCLOS. It is 12 miles.

This -whether UNCLOS is right or not- is not something that can be submitted to the Court’s consideration. UNCLOS is the law. The court decides according to the law, not about the law. Consequently, territorial waters are a unilateral right of every state.

Turkey recognizes that territorial waters is a unilateral right of Greece. It may disagree with the way to exercise this right, but even Turkey recognizes that this is our unilateral right.

JOURNALIST: So, it’s not true what was once heard, about the possibility of a mixed system. That is, a different settlement for the Aegean and another for the Eastern Mediterranean. We remain firm on 12 miles throughout the Greek territory.

N. DENDIAS: That is our right. That is the International Law of the Sea.

JOURNALIST: Are we discussing it?

N. DENDIAS: When and how we will exercise it, that’s our own right. This is not something we will agree with Turkey on. Nor is Turkey going to say that it requires us to publicly agree with it on the extent of our territorial waters. In the same way that it does not give us the right to decide along with Turkey the extent of its own territorial waters. Let’s be frank about that too.

JOURNALIST: Let’s turn to something else. On July 20, Erdoğan goes to the Occupied Area of Cyprus. A great show is coming, from what we hear. He will probably be accompanied by an entourage numbering 500 people. We have already been given a taste of it by his Vice President who more or less said that we are the invaders. This is a case of blaming the victim.

There is a feeling that all this is related to the Cyprus issue and the Turkish, Turkish Cypriot proposal for two separate states. We already have Tatar’s faux pas who, while the talks to find a solution were in progress, submitted unilaterally this proposal to the United Nations.

Are you concerned about all these moves? Are you concerned about Erdoğan’s presence on July 20, and the possibility that something very intense might be provoked? Are you also concerned about the two-state solution strategy being promoted?

N. DENDIAS: First of all, we have a firm principle in Greek foreign policy, which is not the Mitsotakis government’s principle, it is a long-established principle. Greece is a country that pursues a foreign policy based on international law and the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council.

JOURNALIST: Forgive me, Minister. Will this prevent Erdoğan from doing what he wants?

N. DENDIAS: No, at an initial stage, it will not stop him. But it is certain that anyone who deviates from the framework of International Law begins to have problems.

In the best-case scenario for him, it causes enormous damage to the image of his country and of himself as a player in the international scene. At worst, it leads to sanctions and other consequences.

JOURNALIST: However, we did not see any sanctions imposed in the recent Council.

N. DENDIAS: To be honest again, yes, we did not see the imposition of sanctions. We had a decision that provided for sanctions regarding the Cyprus issue and an extensive discussion regarding the Eastern Mediterranean and the Aegean in general.

After all, let us not fool ourselves, one of the reasons Turkey ended its illegal activities in the wider region had to do with the threat of sanctions. And as you also know, the United States has imposed sanctions on Turkey.

Therefore, we should not consider sanctions to be something that is metaphysical and beyond the reach of the international community to impose.

JOURNALIST: Turkey stopped for now. But we are talking about Erdoğan, who has been bombarding us with extremely provocative statements over the last five years. He has been bombarding the whole world but we hold the lead.

From the Greek side, three people have had the opportunity to meet him in person and therefore to judge him: Kyriakos Mitsotakis, Alexis Tsipras and you.

What did you think of him and what do you think could facilitate communication between the two sides?

N. DENDIAS: Regardless of what anyone thinks about Turkish politics and the way it is demonstrated, the Turkish President is an important factor in our region. He is a leader who has ruled Turkey almost as much as Kemal Ataturk and has shaped Turkey, regardless of whether we agree or not.

JOURNALIST: That’s true, but he is considered to be unpredictable by both Europe and the United States.

N. DENDIAS: I have met with him several times. The last one was when he hosted me at the Presidential Palace in Ankara. But I have seen him several times in my life, especially in Strasbourg, where he came at the invitation of the then President of the Parliamentary Assembly, the current Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu, to gain a better international profile.

On a personal level, President Erdogan is to begin with a hospitable man. I would probably dare to say, on a personal level, he is a cordial man.

On the other hand, Greece fundamentally disagrees with his policy in the wider region. And one has to state that clearly. This is an honest thought.

Everyone should speak his mind.

JOURNALIST: I asked you what kind of person he is, apart from being hospitable. If you had any other remarks to make.

N. DENDIAS: I think he is a man who has achieved a lot in his life. If one thinks about how he started from and how he has shaped and strengthened hiscountry, I think this is something we need to take into account when talking with him.

JOURNALIST: Do you consider him to be predictable or unpredictable?

N. DENDIAS: I do not think that President Erdoğan is unpredictable, no. I think it is very convenient for him in the context of his policy to be considered unpredictable, but I do not think that he is unpredictable. I think he has a strategy and he also has specific values, personal values that his strategy serves.

Disagreeing with these values is another matter. With too many of them, perhaps, Greece and we do not agree.

JOURNALIST: Minister, could you commit yourself that we are not going to recognize Kosovo? I am aware that our current position does not change. I am asking if you could make such a commitment.

N. DENDIAS: Why should I make a policy commitment? What would be the meaning of doing such a thing?

JOURNALIST: In the sense that the Cypriot side continues to say that it is an illegal declaration of independence and that there supposed to be an Athens-Nicosia alliance, in the sense that the Serbs would not be happy at all, in the sense that Russia would be annoyed.

And the only power that would like this to happen for its own strategic plans is the United States. The question is whether we consider that our interests coincide with the aforementioned first or last ones.

N. DENDIAS: In principle, Greece is not going to do something that is not in accordance with international law, international legality. We have made it clear that we are pursuing a principled foreign policy.

I repeat, you raised an issue regarding Cyprus. In an advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice it is clearly stated that differences between Kosovo and the occupied area of Cyprus…

JOURNALIST: This is our interpretation. For them, however, it is not.

N. DENDIAS: …it is documented in the clearest terms. Beyond that, I am the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Mitsotakis government and the Hellenic Republic. And what we do is what constitutes the implementation of the government’s policy and expresses the interests of our country as we view them.

So, vague proclamations and grandiloquent pledges are not something that is common among Foreign Ministers. In fact, I think it is wrong.

JOURNALIST: You make it sound as if I asked you a very aggressive question.

N. DENDIAS: You have the right to ask any question you want. I am obliged to answer within the framework of my duties.

JOURNALIST: Minister, it is for the second time that we were left out of the Conference on Libya and the participants have spent little or no time to consider the illegal Turkish-Libyan memorandum and this, I imagine, because they give priority to something else, that is, to normalization.

So, given that there does not seem to be any international pressure towards the withdrawal of the Turkish-Libyan memorandum and also that the new Libyan government which will emerge at the end of the year, if all goes well, is not expected to put the issue high on its agenda, is it possible that it will remain there, like a ghost?
N. DENDIAS: First of all, in order for something to remain, it must exist. In our judgment, it is non-existent.

JOURNALIST: Fine, even as non-existent, however, it will continue to exist.

N. DENDIAS: No, it is relevant, I am not telling you this just because I want…

JOURNALIST: Why are we asking for its withdrawal since it is non-existent?

N. DENDIAS: Just a moment, let us put things into perspective. We are dealing with a transitional Government, not the Government that signed this memorandum with Turkey, which is, if you like, binding on the one who signed it and on Turkey, no one else. It is not binding on Libya, but on those who signed it – why? Because Libya did not ratify it. Even considering their internal procedures, the Libyan House of Representatives has not ratified it, as its Speaker reminded us for the umpteenth time the day before yesterday, when he visited Athens at the invitation of Mr. Tasoulas.

So, at the present juncture, what we want is the holding of elections. What we want is for the Libyan society to demonstrate its will and then, when a new Government emerges that represents the interests of the Libyan society, we are convinced that it will identify these interests correctly; because such actions, which are completely contrary to international law, harm the countries that have signed it.

JOURNALIST: So we are hoping that the new Libyan Government will draw the right conclusions, is that what you are saying?

N. DENDIAS: We are not just hoping, we have the firm conviction that all rational actors in the international scene will operate in accordance with international law and within the international framework. After all, Turkey, if you have noticed – and I am sure you did – was isolated at the [Berlin] meeting. It was the only country that did not accept an explicit reference to the withdrawal of foreign troops and mercenaries, while all other countries explicitly requested it.

JOURNALIST: But does this bind Turkey? Not with regard to the mercenaries, but with regard to the official military advisers in the region. There are 500 of them, according to estimations.

From what I understand, it is not binding because mercenaries and official military advisers are two different things. If Turkey maintains this kind of presence, even after a new Libyan Government emerges, then this poses a problem, I think.

N. DENDIAS: The position of all participants was that, not only all mercenaries, but also foreign troops must withdraw.

JOURNALIST: Yes.

N. DENDIAS: Obviously, the advisers are included in the foreign troops. They are uniformed Turkish army officers. So, the international community wants them to leave, as we believe.

JOURNALIST: We do not know how much it will insist on it though, because it has other priorities.

N. DENDIAS: According to our judgment, the large majority of the Libyan society also wants them to leave. Turkey’s presence there and the way it was achieved was the result of a blatant coercion of a crumbling, temporary authority in a period when, in order to survive, it was forced to sign whatever paper Turkey put in front of it. We cannot assume that arrangements of this sort are going to live a long life.

And, if you allow me, I believe that this is not helpful for Turkey either. With these actions, Turkey is serving an imperialism which is disproportionate both to its economic size and its geopolitical footprint.

JOURNALIST: The next time Erdoğan invites you, you should tell him this, since he is both friendly and cordial, as we said before.

N. DENDIAS: Since you are referring to it, the discussion with President Erdoğan was not an insincere one.

JOURNALIST: Yes, I can imagine.

N. DENDIAS: President Erdoğan did not expect me to go there and applaud the presence of Turkish troops in Libya.

JOURNALIST: Would a direct communication with Kyriakos Mitsotakis help to somehow ease the situation, should there be a discussion between the two of them, or should they discuss more often?

N. DENDIAS: I have always been in favour of a face-to-face meeting and I still am in favour of face-to face talks between Prime Minister Konstantinos Mitsotakis and President Erdoğan. The way the power structure in Turkey is built, no one else has the authority to any meaningful negotiation; therefore, if there is a slight chance, it lies in the contact between them.

JOURNALIST: This is interesting. Now, Minister, let us talk about Germany, which has emerged as the biggest European supporter of Turkey. It is said that it played a role to exclude us from participation in the conference for Libya. Germany, for sure, fervently promotes all Turkish requests in the European Union.

Without any restriction or condition, without requiring any commitment from the part of the Turkish side – despite its aggressive attitude in the Aegean, as is known – Germany generously supplies Turkey with submarines.

Where is this going? You have told Mr. Schmidt of the SPD in strong terms about this, because they too have voted in favour of the submarine deal. But is this a case of saying something to someone that is meant for the ears of others?

N. DENDIAS:  Germany is the largest power in the European Union, an extremely important country for the European Union, a country with which we have a very close relationship both within the European Union and bilaterally.

JOURNALIST: Turkey has a closer relationship though.

N. DENDIAS: I wouldn’t say that.

JOURNALIST: De facto.

N. DENDIAS: I would like to be frank with you, I say it clearly, I have told them clearly, this submarine deal is wrong. It is wrong because Germany agreed to sell the submarines to Turkey in 2009, but then Turkey was different. In an article in the Economist…..

JOURNALIST: The Economist is making the same argument you are making, that the deal upsets the balance of power in the region. Excuse me Minister, but is Germany incapable of understanding this?

N. DENDIAS: Let me tell you that Wolfgang Schäuble, whom in many cases we have demonized, understood this perfectly in the discussion between us.

JOURNALIST: And he kept it to himself?

N. DENDIAS: Wolfgang Schäuble is not part of the executive power, he is President of the Bundestag.

JOURNALIST: But he exerts influence.

N. DENDIAS: Evidently the Chancellery thinks otherwise, that it should proceed in this phase….

JOURNALIST: Let me ask, with the possible participation of the Greens in the Government, who have a completely different, well, maybe not completely but quite different perception of such issues, could the climate change for the better?

N. DENDIAS: In principle, I cannot express an opinion during the pre-election period in a friendly country, it is not appropriate. However, I have met with the candidate of the Greens for the Chancellery; the Greek Government has read correctly the future developments of the German political scene and believes that the Greens will have a role in it, one way or another.

JOURNALIST: We will be in contact with them, we have seen to that.

N. DENDIAS: Yes, I have met with Ms Baerbock a while back. I think that, on a large scale, regarding the international scene we have read the situation correctly. At the beginning they were telling us that our relationship with the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia and Israel is contradictory, that we wouldn’t dare. Yet, the contradiction was resolved de facto. I think that in many cases we have read correctly the signs of the times.

JOURNALIST: Now you are giving a short account of your two years in the Ministry, but we will come back to that. Let us go to the hot debate Çavuşoğlu-Dendias. I place Mr. Çavuşoğlu’s name before yours because it was an away game that ended with a final score 0-1, this is how most Greeks saw it and celebrated. Truth is that this is the first time that things were called by their real name in public, which signifies, I imagine, a change of attitude on this issue. Why did you do this?

N. DENDIAS: First of all, I will say that I do not consider this a football game and I do not think there was a winner…..

JOURNALIST: Well, it is just a journalistic…..

N. DENDIAS: Let me tell you how things stand. The reality is that you cannot but call things by their real name, because otherwise it is you who are discredited.
JOURNALIST: Yes, but it was the first time this happened, Minister.

N. DENDIAS: I cannot be the judge of that, and it is not my job to judge the past. As I told you, our foreign policy is principled. Principles that are not defined directly and clearly to the other side – as it would be meaningless to travel to Ankara and pretend that all is well – would have just……

JOURNALIST: But it was done systematically in the past.

N. DENDIAS: I am simply saying that this is what the Prime Minister authorized me to do and this is what I did. There was a reaction from the Turkish side. I stated the obvious. But from then on, there had to be a reply. This is what ought to be done, because otherwise there is no point in it. We cannot hide the fact that the Turkish casus belli is unacceptable; totally unacceptable. Turkey is the only country on the planet that has issued a threat of war against a neighbouring country, and an allied country for that.

JOURNALIST: NATO ally.

N. DENDIAS: I open a parenthesis – in case this country, meaning Greece, exercises its legitimate right – I close the parenthesis. Should we turn a blind eye to this?
JOURNALIST: Since this story caused a sensation, many said that Dendias acted like a leader. Did you act like a leader?

N. DENDIAS: I was simply following the orders of the Prime Minister, in close consultation with him. I do not know what you call it, but this is what I did. This is my purpose as Minister of Foreign Affairs of our country, to do my job and nothing else.

JOURNALIST: So you are saying that if the occasion arises somehow in the future you will not have ambitions to become a leader, Minister?

N. DENDIAS: Ms Tremi, we are…..

JOURNALIST: Do you think that as Minister of Foreign Affairs you have reached the peak of you career? After all, you are the most popular Minister.

N. DENDIAS: Will you allow me? Thank you for your kindness to remind this.

JOURNALIST: According to MRB.

N. DENDIAS: You know that I put this issue of popularity in its context.

JOURNALIST: Yes, but please do not avoid the question.

N. DENDIAS: I am not avoiding it; we are a Government that has a Prime Minister.

JOURNALIST: Yes, but if the occasion arises…

N. DENDIAS: We are 14 percentage points ahead in the polls, thank God. I am certain we will win in the next elections. Therefore your question ignores the time factor.

JOURNALIST: Do you think that by becoming Minister of Foreign Affairs you have reached the peak of your career? That’s it? Is this the ceiling?

N. DENDIAS: Largely it could be that way. I am particularly pleased I was offered the opportunity to serve in this position.

JOURNALIST: Let us talk about the Prespa Agreement. It was claimed by many quarters that Zaev’s faux pas effectively rescued the Government from a difficult situation, as it is known…

N. DENDIAS: You mean the one with the jersey

JOURNALIST: Yes, and the notorious tweet. That was when the ratification of the memoranda and all the rest were frozen. They claim that this put you out of a difficult position. I follow a line of reasoning: Antonis Samaras and Kostas Karamanlis would have distanced themselves one way or another and nobody could predict the stance of the New Democracy MP’s from Macedonia, from Northern Greece. After all, I do not know if what Zaev did was reason enough to freeze the ratification, or a pretext for you to avoid holding this hot potato, as some claim.

N. DENDIAS: Let me explain why it is not that way. Let me suggest a way we could have handled the issue and then “no harm, no foul”. We could have referred the issue to the Recess Sections of the Parliament and see to it that one Recess Section be composed of MP’s who do not oppose…..

JOURNALIST: People would then wonder why Kyriakos Mitsotakis did one thing last year and does another thing this year. They would say that he tries to smuggle the Agreement through the back door.

N. DENDIAS: No, no, you do him an injustice here.

JOURNALIST: I am not saying he did it. I am talking about the objections that might have been raised in case you proceeded with a deliberate composition of the Recess Sections.

N. DENDIAS: I will explain. We had taken a very specific stance before the elections.

After the elections, we have absolutely and seriously served the implementation of this Agreement. Why have we done this? First of all, because in international affairs pacta sunt servanda. We are the ones who invoke international law, therefore we cannot violate it.

Second, the stability of this country, North Macedonia, is in the best interest of Greece. This is the Government’s assessment, this is its policy. This is the reason we are helping them as much we can, this is why we are trying to assist them in joining the European Union, with the conditionality of the implementation of the Agreement, of course.

When they do not implement, or violate the Agreement, there should be a thick red line drawn and someone should tell them: “Stop, this is as far as you go”. Why? Because there are also problems in their internal affairs, it is obvious that Zaev is trying to find a balance. VMRO is making curious statements during some discussions.

JOURNALIST: Zaev faces serious internal problems.

N. DENDIAS: Exactly, so you have to…

JOURNALIST: He is struggling to survive.

N. DENDIAS: You draw a thick line so he will understand that it is not easy for him to escape from his obligations under the Agreement.

JOURNALIST: So, the memoranda are going to be ratified in September?

N. DENDIAS: I do not know when, but we will ratify them. I just do not know when.

JOURNALIST: Wait a minute; we may ratify them in five years. I am asking if it is going to be within the next……

N. DENDIAS: I am not the Minister responsible for submitting the bill to the Parliament and I am not the Speaker of the Parliament either, so…..

JOURNALIST: What do you think should be done?

N. DENDIAS: Are you asking me what do I think should be done about an obligation the country has undertaken?

JOURNALIST: Yes, should it be done by the end of the year, for example?

N. DENDIAS: As far as the other country honors its commitments, then our country should honor its own. When is the issue of postponement raised? When the other country does not keep its commitments.

JOURNALIST: In this case it could go on indefinitely.

N. DENDIAS: But if North Macedonia indefinitely fails to keep its commitments, then we should not keep ours.

JOURNALIST: I want to return to the issue of Karamanlis and Samaras. Mr. Georgiadis, who was a guest in this show, when asked about Mr. Karamanlis and Mr. Samaras, he said that they are former Prime Ministers and they clearly said, or rather they indicated that they will both distance themselves from the issue of the memoranda.

N. DENDIAS: They have not stated it though.

JOURNALIST: Well yes, but everyone knows it, it has been leaked, I think it has reached your ears.

N. DENDIAS: I am particularly hard of hearing when…..

JOURNALIST: In any case, he said that Karamanlis and Samaras have this extra right as former Prime Ministers. Do you agree with this point of view, regardless the specific issue?

N. DENDIAS: This is a point of view that we at New Democracy have accepted many years ago. I would not treat a former Prime Minister in the same way as other cases.
It is in the interest – forget New Democracy – it in the interest of the country and democracy.

JOURNALIST: Let us return to the issue of the Ministry.

N. DENDIAS: Do you mean the Ministry of Foreign Affairs?

JOURNALIST: Yes, as it is exactly two years since you became Minister of Foreign Affairs.

N. DENDIAS: Not the easiest years of my life.

JOURNALIST: Yes, certainly not. You have spent a lot of time abroad and very little time in Greece.

N. DENDIAS: Also true.

JOURNALIST: You have travelled all over the world. As I understand it, you put the emphasis on the region of the Middle East and I would like to discuss about this, because there are certain steps taken in this direction. But before that, I have this question I would like you to answer, if you want.

All these countries that approached us – the agreement with the United Arab Emirates is considered particularly important – will they be here in the event of a heated incident with a Turkish warship in the Aegean, will they be present or not?

N. DENDIAS: First of all, you referred to a specific country; there is a mutual assistance agreement with this country.

JOURNALIST: Yes, will they be present or not?

N. DENDIAS: Second, last year the United Arab Emirates sent four or six – if I remember well – fully armed F16-60 fighter planes, they were stationed at the Chania airport. Anyway, I hope the need to implement the agreement does not arise. But the agreement exists.

JOURNALIST: What about France? We were supposed to proceed to a full-scale cooperation. Why was it shelved?

N. DENDIAS: We have very close defense cooperation with France.

JOURNALIST: I mean a defense cooperation agreement.

N. DENDIAS: There is something that is being discussed between the two sides.

JOURNALIST: Since last year. Is it frozen?

N. DENDIAS: No, I would not say that at all and I will make no secret of the fact that we consider France a very close ally and a country which has been there when needed.

JOURNALIST: This is true, but recently we witnessed some kind of a mind change from the part of Mr. Macron, after a very intense German massage at the Summit, so I want to ask you if this affects in any way our relations and slows our efforts to sign a defense cooperation agreement.

N. DENDIAS: Historically, at least since 1974, France has always been present, always a friend of Greece, it is a country that always has facilitated and assisted our country at times of difficulty. We cannot and should not forget that.

JOURNALIST: So, nothing has changed.

N. DENDIAS: I have great confidence in the Greek-French relations and in the personal relationship of President Macron with Kyriakos Mitsotakis.

JOURNALIST: Nothing has changed, you say. I do not think so.

N. DENDIAS: I do not feel that anything has changed over the years.

JOURNALIST: I mean recently.

N. DENDIAS: All the more so.

JOURNALIST: Has anything changed in our relations with the United States?

N. DENDIAS: Yes, they have become much warmer. Our relations with the USA are continually improving. Indeed we have a long-standing relationship with the USA, we are NATO allies. Still, the level of our relations in the last years is amazing and it is continually improving.

JOURNALIST: In the last years, or after the change?

N. DENDIAS: What change do you mean?

JOURNALIST: The new Administration.

N. DENDIAS: No, no.

JOURNALIST: I mean President Biden. I did not see any improvement during the Trump administration.

N. DENDIAS: If you allow me, you do the former Secretary of State an injustice. I have lost count of the meetings I had with Mr. Pompeo during the 18 months we were colleagues. I do not think that in the course of Greek history there has been this level of understanding between the two Ministers. It is true that President Trump had a personal relationship with President Erdoğan. But the USA….

JOURNALIST: They did business together, as far as I understand.

N. DENDIAS: I do not know that. But institutionally the USA, the State Department, was always correct in dealing with crises.

JOURNALIST: Are you saying that the fact that Trump went and Biden came has not affected Erdoğan’s stance? Excuse me, but he had gone wild.

N. DENDIAS: It has a beneficial effect for Greece because I think President Erdoğan no longer has the sense that he has a friend at the top of the leadership of the superpower.

JOURNALIST: Who permits him to step out of line…

N. DENDIAS: I want to be fair to the USA, honestly. Despite this relationship, the United States prevented Turkey to a degree from stepping out of line. Otherwise I would be unfair to Pompeo. But we expect more from the current administration. We hope to sign an updated agreement. The previous amendment of the agreement was signed by me and Pompeo last October, soon after we won the elections. It will be a step forward and an additional support to Greece-USA relations.

JOURNALIST: So, Minister, upon concluding this interesting, I would like to think, discussion, do you care to talk about these two difficult years in the Ministry?

N. DENDIAS: I will tell you that I consider them the most difficult years of my life.

JOURNALIST: You really think so? Because you were also Minister of Citizen Protection, which is also a demanding job.

N. DENDIAS: During the period of the Golden Dawn affair. However, it is different when you have the sense that your country is in danger, you know.

JOURNALIST: You mean you’ve had a tough time.

N. DENDIAS: Especially last August was not easy. I think it was not easy for anyone. Obviously it was not easy for the Prime Minister but it was also not easy at all for me. Thank God we got over it.

JOURNALIST: Thank you very much, again.

N. DENDIAS: Thank you too.