Minister of Foreign Affairs Nikos Dendias’ interview with ‘Kathimerini tis Kyriakis’ newspaper and journalist Vasilis Nedos (17.04.2022)

JOURNALIST: How much longer do you estimate the war in Ukraine will last? Are there any indications of a diplomatic solution?

N. DENDIAS: Will you allow me, Mr. Nedos, to point out that any prediction is tentative. What is certain is that Greece will continue to support, as a fundamental principle, the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine. Whether we are close to a diplomatic solution or not, that depends on Russia’s intentions and on what Ukraine can accept. Of course, the horror scenes that were recently revealed in the suburbs of Kiev, and which we have unequivocally condemned, inevitably aggravate the climate.

JOURNALIST: Are you concerned about a spillover of war outside Ukraine? Are you worried about a Russian reaction in case Finland or Sweden chooses to join NATO?

N. DENDIAS: No one can predict the next moves of the Russian side. In theory, even a possible attack on Odessa could trigger the extension of hostilities to other countries. With regard to the possibility of Sweden and Finland applying for NATO membership, I want to be clear: any relevant decision constitutes the sovereign choice of these countries. Both countries are our partners in the EU, they contribute to European security and, of course, if they choose to join NATO, Greece has no reason to oppose it in principle. We, unlike Turkey, which does not allow Austria and Cyprus to come closer to NATO, do not use our membership in NATO to promote self-serving interests.

JOURNALIST: The situation in Ukraine has already taken on an internal political dimension. Some argue that Greece has sufficiently supported Ukraine and should be more “careful” towards Russia.

N. DENDIAS: Greece has maintained historical ties with Russia over time. It had always been careful to maintain channels of communication with Russia, even when we belonged to different geopolitical “blocs”. Both the Prime Minister and I have made efforts to restore and develop these relations in recent years. And to a large extent we had achieved that, through frequent contacts at the political level. Greek society, like the rest of Europe, also has close cultural ties with the particularly rich Russian culture. Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Mayakovsky, Tchaikovsky, Pushkin constitute a particularly important part of Europe’s cultural heritage.

But, as to whether we should be more “careful”, as you put it, towards Russia, let me reverse your question. Shouldn’t Russia have avoided violating principles on which the European security system is based on and which Russia itself has alleged that it supported over time? In conclusion, Greece had no choice, no choice at all. It did what the principles it serves -the principles of International Law and the UN Charter- dictate, and that is respect for the sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of States. Greece, as a matter of principle, condemns any invasion. We would be inconsistent if, defending our positions e.g. in the Cyprus issue, we did not defend the same principles in every case. By its actions, Russia, unfortunately, gave us no choice. The level of Greek-Russian relations is the result of the choices of the Russian government, not of our country.

JOURNALIST: How will the Greek Diaspora be protected?

N. DENDIAS: For Greece, the protection of civilians and the provision of humanitarian aid to the Greek Diaspora in Ukraine constitutes a top priority, especially in the Black Sea coastal cities, such as Mariupol and Odessa, where the Greek Diaspora has lived for centuries. My recent visit to Odessa, a city inextricably linked to our history, is practical proof of the importance we attach to the region. Unfortunately, as regards Mariupol, which I had visited a few weeks before the start of hostilities, the situation is tragic and the city has virtually ceased to exist, according to the descriptions given to us in particular by our Consul General, who was the last European diplomat to leave the city.  Obviously, we are not allowed to go there, so as not to witness the scale of the destruction first hand; we were also not allowed to transport humanitarian aid there, as we did in Odessa.

We will continue to actively raise the issue of Mariupol in all fora and emphasize that the perpetration of war crimes should be thoroughly investigated. That is why I sent a letter to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court asking him to investigate the crimes committed both in Mariupol and in the villages of Sartana and Volnovakha, where, to remind you, Diaspora Greeks were killed by air attacks at the beginning of the war. However, evacuation operations from Ukraine continue unabated.

JOURNALIST: Also on account of the MDCA, the usefulness of the facilities used by the US forces is already evident. In the next period, will the cooperation between Greece and the USA acquire more essential characteristics?

N. DENDIAS: As you rightly said, the rapid transfer of US forces to strengthen NATO’s Eastern Flank through Greek facilities demonstrates in practice the particular importance of the signing of the second amendment to the Greece-US Mutual Defense Cooperation Agreement (MDCA). The decisive role that our country plays in the stability of the wider region, in such a critical time, is highlighted once again, something that has been underlined by US officials as well. Our expectation is to maintain and enhance our strategic relationship with the United States. In this context, a trip of the Prime Minister to Washington is being planned, which is expected to take place soon. Also, the cooperation with the USA within the “3+1” format (Greece, Cyprus, Israel and the USA) -in the framework of which we expect a meeting of the foreign ministers, possibly in the coming weeks- will contribute to the planning of joint actions, aimed at promoting security and stability in the Eastern Mediterranean. And, of course, we should not downplay the importance that the United States attaches to the leading -as they describe it- and the stabilizing role that we play in the Western Balkans.

JOURNALIST: Is the goal of complete energy independence from Russia realistic? Is the transport of gas from the Eastern Mediterranean to Europe in the form of LNG indeed the prevalent choice, as Ms. Nuland said in a recent interview with “K”, or is the possibility of building pipelines still open?

N. DENDIAS: An opportunity now exists for Greece to play a significant role in EU’s efforts for energy independence from Russia. Our country could become a regional hub for the transport of gas, through the Floating Storage Regasification Units in Revythousa and Alexandroupolis, but also through natural gas pipelines (ΤΑΡ and ΙGΒ).

Also, the possibility of exploiting deposits is being examined, as recently announced by the Prime Minister. However, I should recall that the proposals announced by the European Commission last month, which aim at the independence from Russian fossil fuels before 2030, include the increased use of renewables. Energy transition is a key priority of our country and the government, and this strategy does not change. With regard to your second question, the EastMed project, it remains “alive and kicking”, but the final decision for its implementation will be taken on the basis of economic and environmental criteria. Since you mentioned Ms Nuland, I need to emphasize USA’s unfailing support to the electricity interconnection between Greece, Cyprus and Israel, that is, the Euro-Asia Interconnector, which follows exactly the same route with the EastMed pipeline.

JOURNALIST: Does the role of the “evasive neutral” ultimately bring benefits to Turkey?

N. DENDIAS: Greek Foreign policy cannot and should not be a poor copy of Turkish policy. I have repeatedly stated that we need to escape the narrow confines of a Turkey-centric perception of our policy. Historically, Turkey has always attempted to play the role of an ‘intermediate’ power, buoyed by its geographical position. Conversely, Greece has succeeded in becoming an integral part of a political, cultural and value-based area far more advanced.

This has been our major historical success. If we try to imitate Turkey, we will become nothing more than a poor copy and will face the problems of being unreliable without reaping any benefits.

I would like to avail myself of this opportunity to offer a broader reflection. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine was met with the unified response of all democratic countries, which imposed sanctions. Policies that were acceptable in the 19th century, or even in part of the 20th century, are now faced with the coherent front of democracies.

A state of affairs arises where revisionist narratives, the questioning of borders, of International Treaties and the use or threat of force are denied any moral legitimacy. They are no longer considered to be merely disturbing aberrations, but they are perceived as what they really are: a serious threat to international peace and security. I am hopeful that all countries, including Turkey of course, will understand this new international reality as soon as possible.

JOURNALIST: How do you comment on the escalation of Turkish provocative conduct in the Aegean in recent days, especially the significant increase in overflights over Greek islands during almost the entire last week?

N. DENDIAS: This practice is unacceptable and condemnable. We have protested strongly to the Turkish side, both in Athens and in Ankara, stressing that any violation of national sovereignty and territorial integrity is a flagrant violation of International Law. We also emphasized that these actions are inconsistent with the efforts for de-escalation, following the Prime Minister’s meeting with the Turkish President. In addition, we underline that there are no double standards when it comes to violations of International Law.

JOURNALIST: Can there be cooperation between Greece and Turkey as regards energy issues?

N. DENDIAS: I have stated several times that we are open to cooperation and we do not exclude any country, provided that they accept the principle of reciprocity and respect for International Law and especially the International Law of the Sea. Turkey excludes itself from various cooperation schemes due to its conduct and persistent violations of International Law.

JOURNALIST: Are you concerned about a possible spillover of the Ukrainian crisis to the Western Balkans?

N. DENDIAS: Even before the outbreak of war in Ukraine, there were hotbeds of destabilization in the region, especially in Bosnia and Herzegovina, where the ominous scenario of a conflagration has not been ruled out. This is something I have emphasized to all my interlocutors, both in the region and beyond. Greece has no self-serving interests in this country. Our only interest is the consolidation of its stability and unity.

In this respect, attempts by both internal and external actors to destabilize, revive nationalisms and “return to the past” need to be contained. The response to these challenges is to “retreat forward”, by enhancing the European perspective of the region. This is the way to prevent a return to the “Balkan past”, to help the region reject the forces at work which are attempting to take advantage of any gap, to promote extremist ideologies and implement a destabilizing agenda.

We have played a leading part in shaping the European perspective of the Western Balkans and we continue to work actively, taking relevant initiatives. The immediate priority is the start of EU accession negotiations with Albania and North Macedonia. At the same time, we are intensifying bilateral contacts with all these countries. In this context, actually, it is my intention to visit the countries of the region again.

JOURNALIST: You travelled to Japan and India. Is there scope for meaningful relations with these countries and – most of all – are there any lasting prospects in this diplomatic effort of yours?

N. DENDIAS: Mr. Nedos, the issue is not whether there is scope to develop relations with these countries, but the reason why these relations had been neglected for such a long time, despite what we have in common. First of all, they are both democratic countries, which respect the same principles as we do, such as International Law and especially the Law of the Sea.

Both India and Japan have ratified and fully respect UNCLOS. Japan, actually, as an island country, is particularly aware of the challenges we face and, of course, our positions are identical. They also play a particularly important role in international affairs. Japan is the third largest economy in the world, India is the sixth. Japan, following decades of introspection, is now pursuing an active foreign policy which has a beneficial effect in places we would not have imagined, such as the Western Balkans. In fact, we agreed with my Japanese counterpart to examine the prospects of cooperation for the stabilization of this region. In addition, Japan has taken a clear position on developments in Ukraine, adopting the same stance as the Western countries. India is opening to the Mediterranean.

India is currently a member of the UN Security Council; Japan will be a member for the 2023-24 term, just before the term for which Greece has submitted its candidacy. Finally, as regards Japan in particular, we must not lose sight of the fact that it has signed the Treaty of Lausanne and is therefore a bulwark against revisionism and any attempts to change it.