Fireside chat of Minister of Foreign Affairs, Nikos Dendias, with journalist Katerina Tsamouri (DELPHI ECONOMIC FORUM, 29.04.2023)

JOURNALIST: Good afternoon to everyone. Thank you very much for joining us today, for watching the – I’m sure – very interesting discussion that will follow, either in person or via live streaming.

There’s no need for introductions. But I’ll make them anyway. Today I have the pleasure and the honor of having a conversation with the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Greece and candidate MP with the New Democracy party in the regional unit of South Athens, Mr. Nikos Dendias. Good afternoon.

N. DENDIAS: Hello, Ms Tsamouri. Good afternoon. Good afternoon to everyone.
JOURNALIST: Well, it’s one more year that you’re taking part in the Delphi Economic Forum in your capacity as Minister of Foreign Affairs. What has Greece accomplished in foreign policy over these last four years to the extent that it may have exceeded your own expectations? What mistakes have been made? Where have we stalled and what do you think the next government should prioritize when elected?

N. DENDIAS: What has been accomplished over these years and I believe it’s the government’s overall achievement, is that we have established a structure of understandings, perceptions, alliances, and agreements that have changed the legal and actual framework in our region.

Firstly, I refer to the two agreements on exclusive economic zones (EEZs): with Italy after half a century of negotiations, with Egypt after 35 years of negotiations, and the agreement in principle with Albania, after various ups and downs, on the basis of the International Law of the Sea. Also, the defense agreements: two with the US, the agreement with France, the agreement with the UAE, the agreement with Saudi Arabia, the strategic understanding with Egypt, and the excellent relationship with Israel.

All of this, I believe, has created, I reiterate, a new reality. These are achievements of the Greek government, but I must say, to a significant extent, of the whole Greek political system, as well.

Because in the past, we always had a tendency to be divided on foreign policy issues. During these four years, there may have been disagreements, but there were also understandings regarding our basic choices. And if we turn to the north, we’ll find ourselves back in the Balkans. I believe we are playing a very constructive role both in our historical relations, like with Serbia, as well as in the relations we are developing with other countries, such as North Macedonia, Albania, Montenegro, and Bosnia and Herzegovina.

I won’t elaborate on the fact that for the first time in our history, we seriously went to Sub-Saharan Africa, we went to South America, we went to India.
The Indian Air Force has been in Athens, participating in military exercises with us for a few days now. The Chief of National Defence General Staff is here, as well. This was not a daily occurrence in Greek foreign policy.

So, to use a Christian term, I believe we are making a good “apologia” to Greek society in view of the May 21st verdict.

Now regarding our mistakes. We have obviously made mistakes, but I believe it’s better if someone else tells us about them. You know, it’s a bit excessive to judge both our rights and our wrongs.

JOURNALIST: Well, as you’re known for your direct answers, and for not trying to avoid questions, if…

N. DENDIAS: Well, let’s not go overboard though; it’s a pre-election season.

JOURNALIST: I have to make such an introduction to elicit such an answer. You’re not evasive, you’re not rounding off your answers, so I want you to answer the following question clearly: In the last few days, you’ve been talking about a change of strategy, a shift in our negotiating tactics, so that at some point we will be able to reach an understanding with Türkiye, in the way we have reached an understanding with the countries you mentioned previously. What do you mean by that?

N. DENDIAS: Let me tell you that I am one of those who deeply believe in the possibility of reaching an understanding with Türkiye and resolving our dispute. And I’m particularly happy because I am ending this term in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs with a very good climate in Greek-Turkish relations.

A climate that if we maintain it until the elections and hand it over to the next government – I believe that we will be the next government, but it’s the Greek people who are our ultimate judge – a window of opportunity can be opened.

A window of opportunity to discuss our dispute in a clear, honest, and sincere manner and resolve it. I do not understand why we can resolve issues with Egypt, Italy, and Albania but not with our neighbor, Türkiye.

JOURNALIST: Since Türkiye does not recognize UNCLOS, what makes you optimistic?

N. DENDIAS: Let me tell you what gives me hope. Türkiye does not recognize UNCLOS, but it recognizes that it is International Law.
So, since Türkiye acknowledges that this is International

Law, and of course if it wishes to discuss on the basis of this International Law -I’m not the one who will impose views on Türkiye-, then I believe there’s always a possibility for solutions and convergence.

For there to be a solution, however, I believe that the right climate must be created. Convergences are achieved when the broader context encourages them and they do not occur when the broader context creates a hostile atmosphere, with statements, challenges, and threats. These do not help.

JOURNALIST: In the context of this different strategy that as you have said will be mentioned in the letter that you will leave to the Prime Minister and your successor, are “differentiated” territorial waters in the Aegean included? Could this be a solution?

N. DENDIAS: But we said to answer clearly, but not like this. There’s no way I’m going to enter into a public debate on that. Yet, I honestly believe that after 63 rounds of exploratory talks, there should be some changes in the way we negotiate with Türkiye. Because these changes will make it easier to reach an understanding faster if that is possible.

But of course, I have an obligation, a real obligation to pass this on as a legacy and as advice to both the Prime Minister – who I believe will be the same – and the next Foreign Minister, when and if necessary.

JOURNALIST: I’m not going to be tempted to open this up because we’re here to talk about foreign policy. But if we have time, I will come back to that.

We are talking, Minister, about this sole dispute, namely the delimitation of our maritime economic zones. The Prime Minister made this point clear, yesterday, here at the Delphi Economic Forum.

However, in recent hours and days, and despite the good climate to which you yourself referred previously, we have seen your counterpart and friend, Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu, directly questioning the Greek sovereignty of the islands. We also saw the AKP’s spot depicting western Thrace and half of the islands of the eastern and northern Aegean as Turkish territory. What about that?

N. DENDIAS: I’ll tell you; I want to be honest.  I don’t take these things at face value.  The AKP, Mevlüt and President Erdoğan face a very difficult election campaign. And how his party organizes presentations, and how it prints and distributes party maps, to be clear, is something I’m not taking seriously.

In other words, as far as I am concerned, I am not going to bring back the climate of Greek-Turkish relations to its pre-earthquake level just because an AKP official foolishly printed such maps. I will not do that.

I will give Turkish society the opportunity to express its opinion through elections and immediately after the elections, without the pressure of a pre-election campaign, the new Turkish government will be able to express its opinion to Greece.

I am leaving, I want to leave – if you may, I believe I have a duty, as far as I am concerned, to leave – the window of opportunity in Greek-Turkish relations open.
It would be easy for me, Ms Tsamouri, to grab onto this map, raise the nationalist flags, and gain a few more votes and preference crosses.

But this is not an element of national contribution. Seriousness is an element of national contribution. When you need to say what you say, say it clearly.
And I didn’t mince my words, I didn’t even mince my words with my friend

Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu when I was in his capital, and he was hosting me.

But to grab onto this and cause an issue because a party official printed a map the way he did, no, I won’t do that.

JOURNALIST: Well, Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu himself spoke some harsh words. But is it just pre-election fireworks or a foreshadowing of their post-election claims?

N. DENDIAS: I am neither naive nor can I know it. But I’ve seen other evidence in Turkish behavior, which I won’t quote here, that points me in a completely different direction. Completely in the opposite direction.

And I’ll say it again; I am neither naive nor do I fly in the face of reality. And, neither are we going to abandon our basic, established national positions that are the “acquis” of the entire political system.

But I believe we owe it to give it a chance. And I am glad that the overwhelming majority of the country’s political system is demonstrating the required seriousness. Looking at the polls in the neighboring country, it is certain that the AKP is facing a very difficult election. I won’t say what the result will be. The Turkish citizens will decide. But under such pressure, one can always say an extra word or two. It’s not helpful to get carried away with this.

We can handle it; it’s just one more month of patience.

JOURNALIST: You seem to trust their new face — please, yes. Do you think this Turkish turn will last? Is it sincere? Is it a means to reach out to the United States to get the F16s that they’re struggling for?

N. DENDIAS: I’m not going to get into Turkish-US relations. That’s between Türkiye and the United States of America.

JOURNALIST: But how exactly is this a bilateral issue? When they fly F16s over the Greek islands, I mean.

N. DENDIAS: I’ll tell you. The United States always – and I’m not speaking as Foreign Minister of Greece because that’s not my business, but as an observer – takes into account both the stability of the alliance and the stability in relations between its friendly countries, and, of course, International Law, and everything related to it.

So, the United States, as a sovereign country, will decide on what terms and under what conditions to provide war materiel to which country. But I’m not the one to tell the United States.

Aside from that, we are all familiar with how the American system works. We all know about the executive branch and the legislative branch, which is known as Congress. We know that Congress, notably the Foreign Relations Committee, does an in-depth investigation into adherence to conditions and International Law before approving war materiel.

But all this concerns the United States. I’m not going to drag Greece back into a discussion of issues that involve two other countries. I’ve already told you though, what I believe to be the framework within which the United States typically operates.

JOURNALIST: To conclude with Türkiye and move on to the other fronts of our foreign policy, I’d like you to answer the following question honestly: A country like Türkiye, which does not respect UNCLOS, still has the casus belli on the table in case Greece goes ahead with its inalienable right to extend its territorial waters up to 12 nautical miles– you’re laughing because you know what I’m getting at but I’m going to continue…

…Isn’t it risky to support Türkiye’s candidacy for the post of Secretary General of IMO, although Türkiye is not a favorite and Panama is, and even if the return we got, namely their support for Greece’s candidacy at the UN Security Council is much higher.

I mean isn’t the risk outweighing the benefit?

N. DENDIAS: Not at all. First of all, I don’t think there’s a risk. The IMO is an organization with a specific statute and agenda and its primary focus is maritime issues.

Greece knows IMO very well; Admiral Thymios Mitropoulos, the only Greek Secretary General so far, is a personal friend of mine. Before making the arrangements with the Turkish side, I consulted him at length.

I would advise you to view it differently. Isn’t Türkiye taking a risk by openly supporting Greece’s candidacy for election to the UN Security Council with a specific agenda that prioritizes International Law, and peaceful resolution of disputes?

And yet, Türkiye took this risk.  It took it for the UN Security Council and Greece won’t take it for the IMO?  Honestly?

Look, I believe we have to be bold. There must be steps taken on both sides if there are to be understandings. I am particularly pleased about this mutual understanding, this mutual support.

I hope that’s a first step towards much more serious and significant steps. You know, ladies and gentlemen, if we are not willing to take even the slightest risk in anything, we will not get anywhere. We may never leave our house in the morning because a brick might fall on our heads.

Such an approach is not right. This understanding between Greece and Türkiye is an excellent first step that can lead us to where we hope to go.

And I repeat myself so that I’m not misunderstood. We will not deviate from the firm Greek positions.  We are not naïve; we don’t think that the chances of success are high. But it would be a grave mistake not to try. It would be a grave mistake indeed.

JOURNALIST: Yes, you’re clear about that.  What we are trying to do with Türkiye we have achieved to a certain extent with Albania as Edi Rama has agreed that we take the EEZ issue to The Hague.

Why is the special agreement process stalled?  Why is it not progressing?  Is it because of the President?

N. DENDIAS: It’s not stalled. Allow me not to specify at what stage it is at the moment because it’s a matter of the Albanian internal legal order. It’s a process that is currently underway and I expect with absolute certainty that it will be concluded very soon. There will be an authorization text by the Albanian President to the Albanian government to negotiate the agreement.

The agreement we have reached with Albania is a major success, not only for us and Albania but for the entire Balkan legal order at sea.

JOURNALIST: When you say “very soon”, do you mean within 2023?

N. DENDIAS: Yes, by all means, within 2023; but don’t ask me to say when exactly. I can guess, but it’s pointless for me to say so.

JOURNALIST: Do you think it could be before the summer?

N. DENDIAS: No, let’s not get too specific right now. You will then ask me to tell you the specific day and time.

JOURNALIST: Okay. Well, let’s stay in the Balkans. What about “Kosovo”? You met with Mr. Kurti a while ago here at the 8th Delphi Economic Forum. I see and understand that you have developed very close and strong ties with both Mr. Kurti and Mr. Vučić.

In the last vote on the accession of ‘Kosovo’ to the Council of Europe, Greece maintained a neutral stance. Cyprus voted against it, Greece abstained, and this made Serbia unhappy. Do you think this will affect our relations with Belgrade?

N. DENDIAS: No, Greece’s relations with Serbia are historical and profound. They are relations of solidarity in World Wars, they are relations of blood sacrifice.

Let me tell you honestly; we deeply care about Serbia and we want and will help as much as we can so that Serbia becomes a member of our European family, where it belongs. We do not believe that there can be peace and stability in the Balkans if Serbia remains a black hole.

We, therefore, believe that by taking a constructive stance in the effort to normalize relations between Belgrade and Pristina, we are also helping Serbia. And, of course, we are also helping Pristina. I’d like to be honest about this. We are helping the Balkans, we are helping our region, and we are helping the European Union as well.

We are implementing the Thessaloniki Agenda. The goal of the Thessaloniki Agenda is to bring the Balkans into the European family. We have succeeded in Eastern Balkans; Western Balkans pose a greater challenge. Many small countries will struggle to grow their economies in the long run unless they join a wider family.

Ms Tsamouri, our role is precisely that of a European country in the region, with a duty: what it has achieved for itself to achieve for the other countries in our neighborhood.

JOURNALIST: However, I saw that your Serbian counterpart thanked SYRIZA for condemning the New Democracy government’s position regarding the abstention.
N. DENDIAS: Okay. I believe that Ivica Dačić, with whom I also have a close personal relationship, made that Twitter post under the pressure of the internal situation in Serbia.

It’s his right, of course. You know, as I stated previously, some things must be assessed in terms of how significant, how serious they are, and how they should be perceived. We recognize the difficulties; it’s not easy for Serbia, many things are not easy for Serbia.

We want to help. It’s our friend, our deepest friend.

I am from Corfu. My office in Corfu is across the street from the Serbian Consulate. The Serbs in World War I settled in Corfu for years. I have deep feelings for Serbia.

I simply believe that when you are in a bag you can’t see as clearly. Being on the outside allows us to see more strategically and if you will, assist in a more intelligent way.

JOURNALIST: Did we have a choice other than abstaining or was it a one-way street to maintain this stance you described?

N. DENDIAS: But we did not vote so that we maintain our own relations. Every time, we vote to facilitate our region’s European future.

That is our criterion. We vote to help address problems.  Greece enjoys the luxury – pardon me the word – of not having a self-serving agenda. We are not a Great Power, seeking dominance or the ability to impose solutions.

We are a medium-sized European country, with peace, stability, International Law, and economic development on our agenda. If you will, and with social growth within the Balkans, which is currently a problem. Their population is declining; they are facing what’s called a ‘brain drain’.

That is our agenda. It’s in the best interests of all countries, not just in Greece’s narrow, selfish interest.

JOURNALIST: Cyprus voted against it.

N. DENDIAS: I will explain why Cyprus voted against and I completely understand why.  First of all, as you know, I have not hidden the fact that I have a close personal relationship with Nikos Christodoulides.

Cyprus voted against it because there was a perception in the past that analogies could be drawn between the case for Kosovo’s recognition and the occupied northern part of Cyprus. This is not accurate.

There is an International Court of Justice ruling that verbatim distinguishes and differentiates the two cases. However, let us not forget how instilled the issue of the occupation of the northern part of Cyprus is in the Cypriot soul.

Cyprus is a country that lives mutilated. So, I understand why Cyprus is voting under the state of a truly emotional internal agenda. That’s perfectly understandable. I guess everyone understands that.

JOURNALIST: However, we have recently disagreed with Cyprus in various areas, on various issues, on the issue of the IMO as well.

N. DENDIAS: Why did we disagree with Cyprus?

JOURNALIST: Cyprus said you can support the Turkish candidacy if you like, but we will take a different stance.

N. DENDIAS: Ms Tsamouri, we are going to disagree on that. First of all, I had previously informed Nikos Christodoulides, and I can tell you the exact day and time and…

JOURNALIST: It’s good to hear that, you’re right to say so.

N. DENDIAS: It was during breakfast in a central hotel in Athens, not to advertise which. If my memory serves me well, it was March 13, something like that. In fact, we were the two of us.

Why did I do that?  Because, of course, I wouldn’t do something like that without first informing the Cypriot government. And I have to tell you that what was intended by this mutual understanding with Türkiye was understood.

Aside from that, the fact that Cyprus could not also vote for the Turkish candidate has to do with the fact that Türkiye, for its own reasons – which in my view are wrong reasons – does not allow vessels flying the flag of the Republic of Cyprus to enter Turkish ports.

So, since Türkiye does not recognize the Republic of Cyprus, and does not allow its ships to enter its ports, how can Cyprus vote for the Turkish candidate? The Cypriot position is perfectly understandable. And don’t even think that Greece has told Cyprus otherwise. Greece is doing the right thing and Cyprus is doing the right thing as well.

What’s more, it’s obvious, that if Greek-Turkish relations improve, a new window for discussing the Cyprus issue will open.

JOURNALIST. We could talk for hours here. I’m sure you all enjoyed our discussion. Unfortunately, we don’t have any more time.

Let me conclude by thanking you on behalf of all Greek citizens for the successful completion of the difficult operation to evacuate and repatriate our fellow Greeks from Sudan. Congratulations to you and to General Floros, who is with us today.

We, as journalists, witnessed our compatriots’ anguish and that’s something I have to say.

Good luck in the upcoming arduous electoral battle.

N. DENDIAS: Thank you very much.