Minister of Foreign Affairs Nikos Dendias’ interview with “SKAI FM 100.3” radio station and journalist Aris Portosalte (21.10.2022)

JOURNALIST: Here’s with us Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Nikos Dendias. Minister, good morning.

N. DENDIAS: Good morning, good morning to your listeners as well; we haven’t spoken for some time.

JOURNALIST: Indeed Mr. Dendias. It’s been some time.

N. DENDIAS: But thank you for the opportunity. Thank you very much.

JOURNALIST: I wish you well and thank you for your immediate response. You’ve just returned from Ukraine; I’m reading some of the details, the human details of this two-hour meeting that you had with your counterpart in the shelter of the Ukrainian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, because the sirens have sounded, as I’ve heard.

N. DENDIAS:  The meeting was unique in some ways.  The city was attacked by seven cruise missiles four of which were shot down, three fell in an area on the lower side of the river; we were actually on the upper side. However, the Ukrainian side promised that it would send me a fragment of the missile that fell in Kiev as a “present” to be kept in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs so as to commemorate the peculiarity of this visit.

JOURNALIST: And you managed to meet with him when other (foreign) officials who were scheduled to visit Ukraine in the next few days did not.

N. DENDIAS: The Polish Minister of Defence, the President of Switzerland and the German President planned to go. They considered that the security conditions were not sufficient though. We weighed the situation in a different way.

JOURNALIST: That’s right.  Well, Minister, what can you tell us about the meeting? How do they see things developing in Ukraine?

N. DENDIAS: First of all, allow me to tell you that there’s some optimism on their side. It is obvious that if you had asked anyone on February 24th where things would have been eight months later, no one would have believed they would be where they are now. Such a development of operations, that is, the Ukrainian army regaining territories, was not commonplace to predict.  On the other hand, I believe they realize the magnitude of the challenge posed by this military conflict following the Russian invasion. Furthermore, it’s a society that has suffered greatly during this time. A large city that is almost daily shelled; I visited the ruins of the last attack by Iranian drones; Five people were killed in one of the buildings.  But of course, there is also a Greek agenda which is very similar to all this.

JOURNALIST: What does it include?

N. DENDIAS: My visit to Ukraine had multiple objectives. Of course, one of them was to reiterate – and the current circumstances made this even more emphatic- our support not only for the Ukrainian side, but also for the principles that the Ukrainian side stands for and defends in this conflict. That is, the United Nations Charter, International Law, territorial integrity of states, independence. Aside from that, it was also very important for us to highlight the similarities of the challenges.  Because our society also faces a major challenge, I would say an unprecedented challenge in the last half century. And in the press conference I highlighted the very obvious similarities to what we face.

JOURNALIST: Regarding a neighbour who says that will come at night, and that we should come to our senses unless we want to become like Ukraine. That’s exactly what has been said; it’s not just a similarity in a general sense.

N. DENDIAS No, not at all. Mr. Portosalte, sometimes the Turkish side accuses us of making “provocative statements”. It’s a funny thing to say. What they call “provocative statements” is the reiteration by us publicly, of what they themselves launch against us as a threat. They call that a ‘provocative statement’. We reiterate what they say, that is what they consider a provocation. This constitutes a one-of-a-kind eccentricity.  I’ve never heard this thing before. No Greek official has ever uttered the slightest thing, either as an insult, a threat or anything else against Turkey. We repeat what they are telling us and they call that a provocation. It is unprecedented. However, I considered -and truly believe- there was no better forum to highlight these similarities.  And if that means something, since everything is on the internet now, on twitter, this specific tweet in which I highlight these similarities has tens of thousands of views. It’s in English, it’s not just for the Greek audience.

So, I think that there is a given position regarding where Greece stands on this specific issue and aside from that there is an issue of Greek interest, namely, the highlighting of similarities, which I believe makes what our society, our people and our country face, obvious to the international audience.

JOURNALIST: That means that one state, Greece is a bulwark of the West and of free society – something also argued by the leader of the main opposition but in a negative sense because he doesn’t agree. Isn’t that so, Minister?

N. DENDIAS: I believe that, in general, we have achieved something important as a society, which should be credited first and foremost to the government – because responsibilities always originate from the government- but it should also be credited to a large extent to the opposition parties.

In other words, we have succeeded in having a civilized dialogue on foreign policy issues and, to be honest, Mr. Portosalte, in adopting a quite unanimous approach behind the lines.

Now, if the opposition perceives the term “West” in a narrow sense of an ad hoc military alliance, then perhaps I can understand their objection, even though I disagree. “West” doesn’t mean that. “West” in the way it is used means a group of democratic countries that share a solid concept of democracy, of human rights, of the United Nations Charter.

JOURNALIST:  Does it also mean the way power is exercised, Minister?

N. DENDIAS: Obviously, against authoritarianism, otherwise it would not be a democracy. I believe the entire Greek society or the overwhelming majority of it, over 90%, would absolutely subscribe to this concept and description of the West, because they believe that this is the space in which they would like our country to be, remain and be active.

JOURNALIST: Allow me to turn the subject and return to the current issue that has arisen the last few hours, which I believe is of interest to the public, as evidenced by their questions and comments. Is the cancellation of the visit of the Israeli Defence Minister to Athens indicative of a shift in the balance of alliances?

N. DENDIAS: I believe that Greece’s relationship with Israel is now a strategic one, of great depth. Israel has been going through a process of continuous elections lately. Therefore, I would not see anything else behind that.

JOURNALIST: The Israeli Defence Minister at the same time chooses to travel to Ankara. What concerns the public is that Israel may come round, to put it simply.

N. DENDIAS: No. First of all, the debate on Israel should be resumed immediately after the elections on November 1. Buτ if you will allow me to speak from personal experience, Greece’s relations with Israel have now a strategic depth.  Israel will not act in any other way, at least not in the current generation of politicians. When it comes to Turkey, Israel is aware of what its previous choice means; I recall that prior to the well-known incidents with the ship etc., Israel’s relations with Turkey were extremely close, even closer than the relations with Greece.

JOURNALIST: Mr. Erdogan is the one who is running behind Israel of course, as far as anyone can tell.

N. DENDIAS: President Erdogan made a concerted effort to influence and charm all the countries with which he had deep differences.   Israel pursues and protects its own interests.  It has responded to a certain extent but only that. I reiterate that I do not feel the slightest insecurity regarding Greek-Israeli relations.

JOURNALIST: Would you say the same about our relations with Egypt, upon which you have been building recently?

N. DENDIAS: Without a doubt. Greece has achieved-and that’s really something that must be credited to the current government – to ensure that relations with Egypt have also grown significantly in depth and breadth. Our relations with Egypt are not threatened by anything. Mr. Portosalte, Greece does not feel insecure; we don’t want other countries to have bad relations with Turkey or to avoid talking to Turkey. But we are interested, when they talk to Turkey, they tell Turkey what they have to say. We do not want to exclude Turkey from the world; that is not in Greece’s interest either. On the contrary, we do want Turkey to be included  but only under International Law and International Law of the Sea. That is what we wish, not its exclusion.

JOURNALIST: And Turkey should continue to be a country of the West.

N. DENDIAS: Of course.

JOURNALIST: In other words, just as Greece backed Turkey’s European perspective in the first decade of the 2000s.

N. DENDIAS: And it will continue to do so, if Turkey wishes it; but when we say “if Turkey wishes it”, we do not mean that it wishes it just in words. For example, when Turkey follows a policy on women’s rights – forget Greek-Turkish relations -, how can Greece help, in what way? How can Greece help when the concept of the Rule of Law on the other side of the Aegean is completely different from the European one? Greece is the only country that openly supports a European future for Turkey, of course subject to the same conditions, that apply to everyone else and assuming that Turkey wants it as well.

JOURNALIST: Okay, to elaborate further, would Greece help Mr. Erdogan overcome his insecurities? That is of course, as you mentioned previously, subject to the Rule of Law, which means not imprisoning people who disagree with him and who express or have expressed their opinion openly. So, do you think Greece could contribute in this direction?

N. DENDIAS: Greece has tried to extend a hand of cooperation to Turkey in every way possible. And if Turkey requires technical assistance from Greece to pursue a European path, Greece is more than willing to provide it to Turkey, just as it has done for the Western Balkans. Greece has really done everything possible in this regard, and if I may say so, independently of which government has been in power.

But here’s what any Greek government, not just the Mitsotakis government, will not do: It is not going to turn Greece into a vassal state. This is never going to happen. If Turkey dreams of such a relationship, then it is very much mistaken. Let us be clear and frank.

JOURNALIST: Allow me to move to the west of Egypt. Were we taken aback by Turkey regarding Libya, Minister?

N. DENDIAS: I believe Turkey has made a mistake in its relations with Libya which weighs heavily Greek-Turkish relations for very many years. And I am referring to the illegal, null and void Turkish-Libyan “memorandum” which goes back to a Suleiman the Magnificent’ s mentality that the Mediterranean, the eastern and central Mediterranean, is Turkish. We were aware that Turkey would take further action. We had informed all of our partners and friends. The timing of their reactions clearly demonstrates this.

Within the first 24 hours, the European Union and the State Department, France, Germany and Egypt as well as a number of other countries took a position. But the reality is that Turkey’s actions create an even bigger problem in its relations with us and with any other country that respects International Law or the International Law of the Sea.

JOURNALIST: If we line up the exclusive economic zones of Greece-Libya, Greece-Egypt, and Cyprus respectively with the opposite side of the Mediterranean, is there any room left for Turkey with Libya, Minister, or none at all?

N. DENDIAS: First of all, no one is willing to exclude Turkey from the sea and Greece even less so. We are a people, a nation that has always traded; we have always used the sea since 800 BC as a bridge of communication. The sea has always served as an element of communication and wealth creation between societies.

JOURNALIST: And particularly the Mediterranean civilization; there is a civilization, a Mediterranean civilization in its own right.

N. DENDIAS: You know, these are also discussed in the context of MED 9.  Turkey has a phobic perception or to put it in a negative way, a perception that it must dominate everything. And that the rules of International Law and International Law of the Sea are not of its concern. After all, that is why it has not ratified UNCLOS. Even if Turkey does not agree with UNCLOS, UNCLOS is International Law.  That is, it applies either as an agreement or as customary law; it applies in both cases.  Turkey cannot make its own rules for zone distribution, allocation, and creation.

So, the question is: can Turkey join the existing framework?  Of course, it can, as was demonstrated by the agreement reached between Israel and Lebanon, which was a major challenge. What was this major challenge?  That Lebanon does not recognize Israel.  Nevertheless, a solution was found to it, as well.

JOURNALIST: And they did it, they achieved it.

N. DENDIAS: So why then Turkey can’t reach an understanding with anyone but Libya and how? Under the blackmail regime of the current Tripoli administration, which every time it is in danger, it is coerced by Turkey to sign whatever Turkey puts in front of it.

JOURNALIST: And of course, without the agreement of Libya as a whole.

N. DENDIAS: Clearly not. Who could agree? Look, the Greek government could also share the Mediterranean with Spain, ignoring Malta and Sicily, but that doesn’t mean that anyone else would accept it. Everybody would laugh at us.
So, Turkey is doing such imperialistic things, believing that these things will be tolerated. These things will not be tolerated. They are a source of tension and friction and they will not make Turkey wealthier.

JOURNALIST: Now let us turn to us. What about expansion of territorial waters south of Crete.

N. DENDIAS: Let me say this, Mr. Portosalte. I’d rather not look at it separately. Greece retains the right to extend its territorial waters within the framework of UNCLOS, that is to say to 12 miles, when it considers that this serves its national interest.

When, where and how is something for the government to decide, when it considers that it serves its national interest. I wouldn’t bring it up in our discussion; And I’m not saying this because you asked. I am saying it because it is a commonplace in public debate.

I wouldn’t see it as a reaction to something or a counter to something. It is our absolute right. We exercise it when and if we deem necessary. And there is no Greek government that can compromise on this right, that is, to say that I don’t have it, I won’t exercise it. Of course, I reiterate, we will exercise it in accordance with our national and wider interests.

JOURNALIST: However, since it’s been raised in the internal debate and the criticism of the government, the next question is when we will draw the line from Alexandroupolis to Kastelorizo, including the bays and so on and say, there’s Greece, that’s Greece. So, when are we going to colour the map?

N. DENDIAS: I reiterate, it is our unilateral, non-negotiable right. The current government determines when its ‘in concreto’ exercise serves the national interest. However, it is a right that exists and will exist in perpetuity. Because that’s what International Law is.

JOURNALIST: Yes. That is to say, I was reading Mr. Yannis Valinakis in “Ta Nea” newspaper yesterday. He says: because the more Ankara expects our reactions to be subdued, the more likely it is for us to face unfavorable dilemmas or even faits accomplis. This is the issue at hand. You have undoubtedly seen it.

N. DENDIAS: Of course, I’ve seen it. Mr. Valinakis is also a friend of mine, in addition to having held the same positions, he was a Deputy Minister in this Ministry for many years and he is an academic. His views carry a certain weight. I always read them, but I believe that the previous answer applies to this as well.

JOURNALIST: Now, allow me to “circle” Greece on the map; we’re OK with Italy. Isn’t that right? When it comes to the Ionian Sea, I mean.

N. DENDIAS: Without a doubt. We are making progress with Albania.

JOURNALIST: Absolutely. Minister, how are things going with Albania?

N. DENDIAS: We are moving ahead. We’ve had some minor issues of defining the border pyramids from the Florence Protocol. Anyway, we are one step further than if you had asked me the same question three months ago.

Let me tell you something, Mr. Portosalte, since I just mentioned the Florence Protocol, this government has been called upon, rightly or wrongly, to confront and resolve problems that date back decades, half a century or even a century.

That’s not something that can be completed in one go. It is something that requires both attention and absolute defence of national interests. And also, what this government is trying to do is to ensure that this does not become part of the election atmosphere, which, for better or worse, is beginning to prevail.  So, for all of this to come together, there needs to be some caution.

JOURNALIST: Of course. But if I may and with that, we will slowly conclude our discussion, the pre-election atmosphere will be shaded by what is being claimed primarily by the main opposition, but also by the lesser, but to a major extent it’s claimed by the main opposition, that Greece is a country that gives everything to its allies and partners and in the end it’s the one that doesn’t get as much in return as the main opposition promises that it would get.

N. DENDIAS: And this is an argument that every opposition has used against every government in this world for as long as I can remember. The reality, of course, is not that; the average Greek on the street realizes that the country has created -I reiterate to a large extent with national unanimity in terms of targeting- understandings that are broader than it has ever had in its history. That’s the case. There are specific agreements; there’s no government in the history of the modern Greek state has signed a greater number of bilateral, trilateral and multilateral agreements than the present government has signed. And once again, we do not claim this as the exclusive political capital of the Mitsotakis government, because to a large extent all of these were also passed by the opposition parties as well, because they concern the country and not just one government. But I will not accept being told that we have a minor presence in the country’s foreign policy.

JOURNALIST: In conclusion, what are your goals for the coming period? Due to the nature of your portfolio, you are the most well-travelled, but where are you focusing your efforts in the coming period?

N. DENDIAS: I believe what I want us to do is to deepen and broaden our understandings on the basis of the six cycles that comprise Greek foreign policy and I have previously described. I believe we have developed a policy that extends beyond the narrow horizon of the Mediterranean. And we need to deepen and consolidate it, so that it becomes the property of Greek society and the Greek state for future generations.

JOURNALIST: Thank you very much, Minister, have a good day. Thank you very much, and good morning.

N. DENDIAS: Thank you and have a nice day.