Minister of Foreign Affairs Nikos Dendias’ interview with SKAI TV’s morning show “Simera” and journalists Dimitris Oikonomou and Akis Pavlopoulos (10.04.2023)

D. OIKONOMOU: Here we are and we’d like to welcome the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Nikos Dendias. Minister, welcome.

N. DENDIAS: Good morning to you both.

D. OIKONOMOU: It’s been so long since we last saw you in the studio.

N. DENDIAS: Yes, it’s been some years. I was trying to remember how many years it’s been since I was on a show. But, with the elections approaching, it’s important to get some things said.

A. PAVLOPOULOS: It’s a good thing anyway that the Minister of Foreign Affairs is not in the TV studios, but rather on his missions.

D. OIKONOMOU: Minister, before we get into the serious topics, I was really wondering how many days you spend away from Greece each month.

N. DENDIAS: About four days a week.

D. OIKONOMOU: Four days a week?

A. PAVLOPOULOS: So, you’re only coming back to Athens to change your suitcase.

N. Dendias: Well, yes, and to receive instructions, as well as to give updates.

D. OIKONOMOU: Manolis Kostidis is also with us and we’ve heard that you will go there, as well, Minister.

M. KOSTIDIS: Good morning, Minister.

N. DENDIAS: Good morning, Mr. Kostidis.

D. OIKONOMOU: You will meet anyway, won’t you? When? On Good Friday?

N. DENDIAS: Yes, indeed.

M. KOSTIDIS: We’ll meet somewhere, I think.

N. DENDIAS: I certainly hope so.

D. OIKONOMOU: Is it in Gökçeada (Imbros)?

N. DENDIAS: In Gökçeada (Imbros). I’m sure Mr. Kostidis told you that the Ecumenical Patriarch visits Gökçeada (Imbros), every 10 years, and this time I’d like us to be together at the Epitaph Procession.

Also, Gökçeada (Imbros), is a case, “worthy of study”, because you know that the Hellenism of Gökçeada (Imbros), has doubled. It does not follow the corresponding shrinkage pattern in Türkiye.

There were 300 people. At the moment, there are almost 600 people. There is a school with almost 60 children.

D. OIKONOMOU: The Patriarch has put a lot of effort into it.

N. DENDIAS: So, it’s very important to encourage it and I’d like to state, because I want to be absolutely honest about it, that we had unwavering facilitation on the part of the Turkish authorities with regards to my trip to Gökçeada (Imbros). Unwavering facilitation, indeed.

Α. PAVLOPOULOS: Greater than other times?

N. DENDIAS: I haven’t been to Gökçeada (Imbros), before, so I can’t compare, but I saw how overall Türkiye wanted to support rather than hinder my trip.
I understand you know, it’s not difficult.

D. OIKONOMOU: You’re putting us right on the next page, Minister. A page we’ve just turned. We were discussing that earlier with Manolis, about Antakya I mean. It’s two months after those disasters there.

You went there from the very first moment. Since then, everything has changed for Türkiye and its internal affairs, but apparently also for many aspects of its foreign policy. At least it seems that way. We don’t know how long it will last; we don’t know what this page is.

However, we seem to be writing a new chapter with Türkiye, Minister, don’t we?

N. DENDIAS: We ought to be optimistic, but also cautious and not naive. The same applies to Türkiye. Türkiye is evidently not naive. Nor is it dismissive of its long-term interests.

However, I remain optimistic, not just because of the natural disaster and our own behavior, which in any case has neither claimed nor is claiming anything in return.

I completely separate the humanitarian and the geopolitical aspects. It is our duty to stand by our fellow human beings. But aside from that, I always have the feeling that Türkiye’s long-term interests are converging with Greece’s long-term interests.

If the Turkish leadership has come to the same conclusion at this juncture, that would be very encouraging.

D. OIKONOMOU: Do you find this attitude convincing, Minister? You have a lot of experience, you know everyone now, and you have friendly relations with many officials. Are you convinced by this attitude?

N. DENDIAS: I believe, first of all, that this is in Türkiye’s long-term interest. I believe that this attitude, more than the previous one, serves the interests of Turkish society, and of the Turkish state.

But everything will be proven from there on. When is that? Immediately after the elections in both countries. If this climate persists and grows better, then…

M. KOSTIDIS: Can I ask a question? I apologize for interrupting but I’m not in the studio. You have Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu in front of you, who indeed in the past years, kept calling you my friend, my friend Mr. Dendias, but we all know what has happened in Türkiye’s both foreign and defense policy and its threats.

Now he is telling you some things. Do you trust him?

N. DENDIAS: Yes, that’s exactly what I was told previously. At the present juncture, I believe it is possible, not certain though, that Türkiye has a clearer view of its geopolitical interests. But aside from that, all this will be seen after the elections.

Greece is not abandoning its foreign policy firm positions; we have always made sailing in calm waters and the absence of threats a prerequisite for dialogue, and that is what is happening today. On the other hand, our foreign policy principles are well known: International Law, International Law of the Sea; we have never hidden them, and we have never changed them.

D. OIKONOMOU: What are we discussing, Minister? Wait a minute, because we’re hearing information, rumors, one way or another, that we and the Turks are under pressure from other powers to sit down at the table and find a solution to some issues, that Greece should “add some water in its wine”, that Türkiye should differentiate its position on some issues. Is there such an issue? Are we really under pressure or will we sit at the table if we want to?

N. DENDIAS: During my tenure, and I can only speak about this, there was no such phenomenon.

Α. PAVLOPOULOS: No pressure at all?

N. DENDIAS: There was no such phenomenon and I will tell you why. Nobody could tell you anything because of the nature and the tone of the threat. I do not wish to recall them because I’m going to bring back a climate…

Α. PAVLOPOULOS: But they are very recent, they are very fresh and we all remember them.

N. DENDIAS: We all remember them. In this context, what should the Americans come to tell you or the Germans or the British?

Α. PAVLOPOULOS: But at this point, Minister, suspicion is growing precisely because it is very fresh.

N. DENDIAS: That’s right.

Α. PAVLOPOULOS: That is, the skepticism. Because until just before the earthquake, we had the long-range missiles, the maps, and the war game; “they played war” every day, the Turkish Tyfun that was heading to Greece, and all of that changed radically after the earthquake and Greece’s instant reaction.

N. DENDIAS: The fact is that since that visit to Antakya, that tragic visit -I have never seen anything worse in my life, I must tell you- everything has indeed changed. Not only are there no violations or overflights in the Aegean, on the part of Türkiye, but there’s also no longer flying activity at all.

Α. PAVLOPOULOS: Is that a sign of goodwill?

N. DENDIAS: Obviously.

Α. PAVLOPOULOS: Or is it because they realized that all this was going nowhere, so they decided to change course?

N. DENDIAS:  Maybe both. There is no possibility whatsoever that this decision was made at a lower level than the Turkish leadership; this is a resolutely top-down initiative.

Aside from that, if I may say, what is Greece’s obligation? In response to this behavior, it should demonstrate that it understands it and is ready to engage in an honest discussion.

Α. PAVLOPOULOS: But to what kind of discussion? Do you know why I am asking you? As a point of reference, consider Mr. Erdogan’s confidant, Mr. Kalin, who, the day before yesterday…

N. DENDIAS: I know Mr. Kalin.

Α. PAVLOPOULOS: Yes, of course. So, he said, let’s engage in a bilateral level, without the presence of third parties, such as the European Union and Washington, etc., so as to discuss and see where that can lead us.

But what are we going to discuss?

N. DENDIAS: There are firm principles.

D. OIKONOMOU: Sorry, Minister, to add to that, Mr. Kalin said that this conversation had started earlier. Let us call it a moratorium. Did it actually exist before the earthquakes? Was there something before them? Was it the Kalin-Boura meeting? Was it something else? Had you discussed something?

N. DENDIAS: No. There was an attempt, let us say, to somehow establish an understanding for the pre-election period.

D. OIKONOMOU: Just for this period.

N. DENDIAS: Because you recall the enormous anxiety, I assume there was similar anxiety in Türkiye, namely about what might occur during the elections.

Α. PAVLOPOULOS: Whether there would be a war incident.

N. DENDIAS: Imagine there was a discussion about not having a caretaker minister because something might happen. At its core, that was a tragic discussion, if you consider it.

Α. PAVLOPOULOS: Just a minute. Were we truly considering a war incident at the time?

N. DENDIAS: Considering there were violations, and overflights in heaps on a daily basis, wasn’t there a possibility of an accident? Not in the sense that Türkiye would decide in the middle of the election period to attack Greece. For God’s sake.

D. OIKONOMOU: As an accident, you mean.

N. DENDIAS: Yes, an accident.

D. OIKONOMOU: Did you discuss this with the Turks?

N. DENDIAS: Obviously. An accident during the election period, which we don’t even comprehend, can infiltrate the public discourse and lead to anything.

D. OIKONOMOU: Did you contribute to this moratorium, Minister? And in what way?

N. DENDIAS: I don’t know to what extent. First of all, I wouldn’t call it a moratorium. Because the term “moratorium” has another connotation. I’d say that there’s now an informal understanding between the two sides, which may lead to an attempt to resume a serious dialogue so as to find a solution to our dispute after the elections.

D. OIKONOMOU: So, this happened before the earthquakes and evolved afterwards?

N. DENDIAS: No, it didn’t happen that way and it’s pointless in reading too much into it. Prior to the earthquakes, there was an attempt to simply deal with the extreme situations that might occur during the pre-election period.

There was no climate conducive to a serious dialogue between Greece and Türkiye regarding our dispute. Why? Because we had set a condition. You remember that.

What was the condition? To stop the provocations. Then, that changed, without meaning of course, that Türkiye submitted to our condition. This is not what I’m saying. Türkiye alone demonstrated a complete paradigm shift immediately after my visit.

Aside from that, Greece …

D. OIKONOMOU: What does this mean for us now, Minister?

N. DENDIAS: It’s simple. It is a window of opportunity.

N. DENDIAS: Of course, under our set conditions.

D. OIKONOMOU: But under what conditions? Because as Manolis will remind us, the casus belli and the “blue homeland” are still present on a daily basis. Are we going to enter the dialogue with these issues at the table?

N. DENDIAS: Excuse me. Greece is engaging in a dialogue with our foreign policy established principle: International law, and International Law of the Sea. That’s it.

Α. PAVLOPOULOS: A question, please. Is there a possibility that all this de-escalation of tension, the goodwill and outreach gestures, and so on have a catch behind them? That is, to initiate a dialogue where they will present or attempt to present the claims, they have had from time to time until very recently, we reject them and they tell us that we are causing the rift, so “let’s turn back to the old ways”.

N. DENDIAS: No, there’s no possibility of that happening, that is, there’s no possibility of us being charged with damage from something like that, because we have been clear from the outset about what the parameters with which we are entering the dialogue are. So, therefore, no one can put the blame on us afterwards.

And if I may, let me revert the argument. It would be a grave mistake for Greece not to extend a hand similar to the hand of friendship that Türkiye is currently extending.

D. OIKONOMOU: At what level do you feel that may happen?

N. DENDIAS: I don’t speculate, I don’t know what will happen; do you want me to place odds? There are few chances of success, but it’s our national obligation to try and it would be a grave mistake to ignore it…

Α. PAVLOPOULOS: Because that’s our position.

N. DENDIAS: It is exactly too grave to ignore it because if we do so from then on, any international actor would tell us: “Well, what else did you expect? Weren’t you telling us that you want a period of time when you are not challenged, or threatened? They hand it to you and you refuse to enter into  a dialogue”?

D. OIKONOMOU: But how can that be in practice? At what level? Could it be at the level of the Confidence Building Measures? Could it be at the level of Foreign Ministers? With you, if your party wins the elections and you are the Foreign Minister again?

N. DENDIAS: It’s up to the Prime Minister to decide who the Minister will be; it won’t be me to take this decision.

D. OIKONOMOU: I mean at what level the dialogue will take place? How do you imagine it will happen?

N. DENDIAS: I have a clear understanding of what could be improved regarding the way the exploratory talks are now being conducted. Why am I saying that? Because there have been 63 rounds of exploratory talks, actually 64 rounds, and they have led nowhere.

D. OIKONOMOU: Yes, exactly.

N. DENDIAS: If we proceed in exactly the same way in the 65th round, will the issues be resolved there? But that will have to be presented as my recommendation to the Prime Minister and it depends on the Minister who will handle it afterwards.

Α. PAVLOPOULOS: As the head of the Greek diplomacy, you said something that sounded particularly interesting, and obviously you mean something much more than that. You’re saying that you have in mind the next steps or the next trajectory that this entire diplomatic effort might take. Does that suggest, in your view, that we should change course after the elections and do something else in our effort…

N. DENDIAS: I have some modifications to the process in my mind that, if Türkiye wishes, could possibly result in a better outcome as regards our dispute.

Α. PAVLOPOULOS: Compared to what is happening now?

N. DENDIAS: In relation to what has happened now.

D. OIKONOMOU: Manolis, over to you.

M KOSTIDIS: Let me ask you two small questions. The first question. What you mentioned, Mr. Dendias, applies to the current Turkish government. If the government changes, will these things continue to apply to a different government?

And a second one. Because there is a lot of talk about Cyprus and because of the two rounds of elections that we have here, if the Turkish President makes a move regarding Cyprus to attract the nationalists -and you know the scenario that is being heard- wouldn’t that affect Greek-Turkish relations?

N. DENDIAS: I’ll start by answering the second question and then move on to the first one. It would be desirable, and I have stated in every possible way, that there should not be any behaviour on the Turkish side in Cyprus that would cancel the excellent climate that has been created in Greek-Turkish relations.

Because let’s not fool ourselves, I always state that Cyprus is not far away. And if something happens in Cyprus, it is obvious that it will also poison Greek-Turkish relations.

The second point is that Greece, like Türkiye I imagine, always talks to the legitimate government of the country. Therefore, Greece will be ready to discuss with any government that Turkish society, the Turkish people, deem to represent them.

For our part, we believe that we will win the elections, we will have a new government with the same Prime Minister. So, that government with whomever the Prime Minister chooses as Foreign Minister will be ready to discuss with the Turkish side.

D. OIKONOMOU: Our objective is to hold direct talks, Minister?  Because so far, we are saying that we will refer to The Hague, since the Turks do not sit down and talk. What do we discuss?

N. DENDIAS: However, the Hague also requires understandings. In other words, we cannot agree overnight, we cannot go to The Hague within the existing framework.

There are our letters, our correct letters, I am referring to Venizelos’ letter, the last one in 2015, which is a correct letter.

Therefore, within the existing framework, we need to have understandings to go to the Hague. The same applies to Albania, doesn’t it?

D. OIKONOMOU: Is it the same with casus belli, Minister?  Since 1995 we live with casus belli, it is an issue that creates problems in Greece.

N. DENDIAS: We have not, no government has, so far, set as a condition the lifting of the casus belli in advance.  But aside from that Türkiye’s behaviour, which shows that the casus belli is perhaps a past practice, was set as a necessary condition. And I believe that this condition has been met today.

A. PAVLOPOULOS: It invoked it recently, on the occasion of the extension or not of territorial waters to 12 miles.

N. DENDIAS: That was before the easing of tension. But excuse me, for three years I have been explaining everywhere that this is unacceptable. And first of all, I explained it to Türkiye itself and I stated it in Türkiye. We are not hiding. And Türkiye understands what we are saying.

So, the wording in 1995, which it would be interesting to read in its entirety at some point, namely the decision of the Turkish National Assembly, is indicative, because, in my humble opinion, the Turkish National Assembly has a sense of guilt when it formulates it, and at the end it is written “in the spirit of friendship”. In other words, there is an issue in the paragraph itself, there is an inherent contradiction.

D. OIKONOMOU: Minister, you have already said, we have said, and we have been discussing the issue of territorial waters for all these years. We know that Greece retains this right, and it affirms everywhere that it will exercise it when it wishes to do so.

Is that a given for Greece?  Is it 12 miles or up to 12 miles?  Because we also hear such opinions.

N. DENDIAS: No, up to 12 miles is not a Greek position, it is exactly the wording of UNCLOS.  UNCLOS says up to 12 miles. That’s what it says.

A. PAVLOPOULOS: Does the de-escalation of tension and the apparent rapprochement, so to speak, bind us as to the timing of the decision? To put it another way, can all of this stop us from moving forward with an extension as we should?

N. DENDIAS: I believe that the extension of territorial waters is a unilateral right of Greece, which we have emphasized will be exercised when it is in the national interest. And this wording, which is the wording of the Mitsotakis government, is the same as that of all Greek governments over the years.

M. KOSTIDIS: Let’s talk about domestic issues. Because you were the one who dealt with (Turkish) foreign and defence policy in the last few years, which was expressed in terms of “and one night, suddenly, we will come to the islands”. And that was in the most formal way, at the highest level. Can the people on the islands sleep peacefully today? Do you believe Türkiye’s policy has changed?

N. DENDIAS: Look, I believe, again, there’s no point in talking about firm policy guidelines. But at the present juncture and with a narrow time horizon, until the elections, I think it’s really useless to even discuss it. Turkish behaviour is such that any reference to this issue is seen as coming from a longer past than it actually does.

D. OIKONOMOU: Does the opposition, the opposition’s attitude assist you in your work, Minister?

N. DENDIAS: The Greek opposition?

D. OIKONOMOU: I mean, here in Greece.

N. DENDIAS: One thing I am proud of as a Minister in the Mitsotakis Government is that we have managed to a large extent to keep foreign policy out of political dialogue’s toxic climate. And this is significant because, as I have already stated, Greece has always been divided on foreign policy issues since the Revolution in 1821. In 1826 Ibrahim burns the Peloponnese, and we have a civil war 50 kilometers away, English party, French party, Russian party. Recall the periods 1914-1915, 1920-1922, 1944-1949, we have always been divided on foreign policy issues. “Traitors”, “betrayers”, that has not been heard in four years.

And I would like to credit the Mitsotakis government for not allowing, through its behavior, a toxic climate in foreign policy to develop.

D. OIKONOMOU: And so, you also credit the opposition.

N. DENDISAS: Obviously, because there has been a response to a large extent.  This is related to the briefing, the discussion, and the colleagues who represent the opposition parties in these briefings.

D. OIKONOMOU: And, finally to you.  

N. DENDIAS: I carry out the instructions of the government.

D. OIKONOMOU: Minister, an important visit will take place in Greece tomorrow. Should we expect something? You have stated that Mr. Shoukry, the Egyptian Minister, is a friend of yours.

N. DENDIAS: Yes, he is one of my friends. You will tell me that I have a lot of friends. But, you know, having friends is important.

A. PAVLOPOULOS: And Mr. Çavuşoğlu, is one of your friends?

N. DENDIAS:  Mr. Çavuşoğlu, too.

A. PAAVLOPOULOS:  Is Mr. Çavuşoğlu, a friend of yours, with whom you maintain a personal relationship?

N. DENDIAS:  Yes, Mr.  Çavuşoğlu, is a friend of mine, and I have known him for 17 years.  I have stated it in the most difficult moments. It was something he also used to say. He criticized me, but in the end, he added:”Dendias is a friend.”

A PAVLOPOULOS: In the difficult moments, when you closed the door, so to speak, were you at ease to discuss with him or did you discuss at the point of ‘will we make war’?  

N. DENDIAS: I was at ease, and I am usually at ease calling him on his mobile phone. The difficult moment was when…

A. PAVLOPOULOS: Did you reach the point where the two of you discussed the possibility of a military conflict?

N. DENDIAS: I’ve called him. No, now I don’t tell you what, but there was a…

Α. PAVLOPOULOS: We talk about what happened.

N. DEMDIAS: There was a huge difficulty the moment when President Erdogan…

M. KOSTIDIS: What was the difficult moment?

N. DENDIAS: He forbade any contact.

D. OIKONOMOU: And you didn’t even talk to each other?

N. DENDIAS:  That was challenging. One day I’ll tell you about it.

D. OIKONOMOU: So, there was no communication between the two of you?

N. DENDIAS: If I ever write a book, I’ll write the story of that short period.

A. PAVLOPOUOS: You were afraid that we might enter into an escalation.

D. OIKONOMOU: How do you talk to each other?  Do you address each other as Mevlut, Nikos?

N. DENDIAS: Yes, exactly. How could it be otherwise?  

A. PAVLOPOUOS: Were you concerned that Erdogan’s ban on contact might lead to a dangerous escalation?

N. DENDIAS: From then on, the tragedy of the situation was that if the slightest thing happened, there was no one to deal with it.

D. OIKONOMOU: There was no contact at all, huh?

N. DENDIAS: Not even the slightest…

A. PAVLOPOULOS: Minister, when did this happen?

N. DENDIAS: I’m sorry, I can’t tell you exactly when it occurred. It happened after the Prime Minister’s speech to the Congress… That’s when it occurred.

D. OIKONOMOU: That was a catalyst, Minister.

N. DENDIAS: Then I ceased to have the constant feeling that I could with one phone call, at least, deal with the random event.

D. OIKONOMOU: Minister, since you brought it up and we recalled the United States, what you see happening with the arms programmes? There’s a big issue regarding Türkiye, Menendez’s stance, United States’ stance, as well as the F-16s, the F-35s. What do you see?

N. DENDIAS: Senator Menendez is a friend of Greece, but he’s primarily interested and rightly so in American interests. This is a matter between Türkiye and the United States.

Greece does not take a public position on this issue and rightly so. It has opinions. I, always state, that the United States should serve their own interests.

What are their own interests? It is that there should be no conflict in the region and that the two NATO member countries should not have…

A. PAVLOPOULOS: But Menendez from the outset has linked his opinion also to the threat against Greece. So, if after this…

N. DENDIAS: Take a step further. Because he perceives that the threat to Greece is a threat to United States’ interests. Senator Menendez has taken an oath to the Constitution of the United States. Not to the Greek Constitution and the Greek flag. There is no need to fool ourselves. There is no need for sentimentality.

I reiterate that he is a friend of Greece. But, above all, he is an American senator.

D. OIKONOMOU: Therefore, he protects the interests of the United States. You didn’t tell us, about Mr. Shoukry, whether we should expect anything else. What is the point of the visit?

N. DENDIAS: With Shoukry, or rather with Egypt, because I am not personalizing this either, we have a very good relationship. The Prime Minister has a very good relationship with President Sisi.

We have succeeded in having a strategic relationship. This is a great achievement for Greek foreign policy. Our contacts are constant, continuous, so I don’t expect anything major, but rather a continuation of the convergence of views on a broader range of issues in our region.

Once again, I state, since it is relevant to the previous discussion, that Greece’s understandings and strategic relations are not relations against Türkiye. They are relationships that demonstrate to Türkiye what ties it could have with us if our relations were normalized.

A. PAVLPOULOS: It is welcome.

N. DENDIAS: Of course. They are an example, not a hostile coalition.

A. PAVLOPOULOS: Regarding Türkiye’s request to enter the regional energy game, and if this is dependent on, leads to, or is a pilot for de-escalation.

N. DENDIAS: Of course, it can enter, but it must recognize the Republic of Cyprus otherwise how will the energy map be read? Are we going to take Cyprus off the map and replace it by the sea?

D. OIKONOMOU: Did you also discuss this at the tripartite meeting, Minister, the day before yesterday with Cyprus and Israel?

N. DENDIAS: Energy was a major part of the discussion with my colleagues Mr. Kombos and Mr. Cohen.

D. OIKONOMOU: We don’t need Manolis anymore. Minister, let us now turn to the question of arms programmes.

M. KOSTIDIS: Good morning and we’ll meet with the Minister in Gökçeada (Imbros).

N. DENDIAS: On Good Friday, Mr. Kostidis.

M. KOSTIDIS: We could ask him to bring us a candle, an easter bread, but well…

N. DENDIAS: No, I’ll bring you anything you want, with great pleasure.

D. OIKONOMOU: He’ll bring you, Manolis, we’ll send you through the Minister. Good morning, I wish you well.

M. KOSTIDIS: I wish you well.
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