Minister of Foreign Affairs N. DENDIAS:
I will start by saying that Greece has a very principled foreign policy and that’s that. Principled means we act according to International Law and the International Law of the Sea.
And what are trying to do is create an understanding between all countries, not just of our region but even far from our region, according to these principles.
And I have to say also that we believe we have been successful not because we are competent or because we can charm our friends around the world, but because this is where humanity goes to, a rules-based world order.
So, our humble ambition is to service this purpose of humanity and to create this understanding among as many countries of the world as possible. That goes for the Balkans, that goes for the East Mediterranean, that goes for the Gulf, and if I may say even beyond the Gulf, the Indo-Pacific Oceans and all the oceans of the world.
Please kindly do not forget that Greece is the biggest commercial maritime power in the world, the Greek owned fleet is the biggest in the world, so we have a huge interest in freedom of navigation.
Thank you so much and I am so happy to be in this roundtable with Averof and with David.
I will never forget – and I would like to repeat that – I will never in my life forget David’s crucial support in my effort against the Golden Dawn in the difficult years 2012, 2013, 2014. I will always remember to thank him in public for his support.
Coordinator (Daniel Franklin):
Thank you very much. Could I ask you to elaborate a little bit, perhaps, before we move on to our other panelists? On the state of play, really, in the Eastern Med. So, here, a year ago, tensions were very high at our conference. I remember there was a build-up of concern and then it actually came to physical clash in the Eastern Mediterranean.
Now, we have moved on to a period where the tensions are lower, some degree of dialogue has been taking place. Where do things stand at the moment, and how do you see this developing?
N. DENDIAS:
Well, thank you for asking me. First of all, I will share your conclusion that the tensions, luckily, this year, are not at the level they were last year.
Having said that, and in continuation of my initial remarks, I have to say that the huge number of countries of our region, of the Eastern Mediterranean, are sharing our principles and our understanding that we should go by the International Law and the International Law of the Sea.
Unfortunately, there is a minority of one, that does not, for its own reasons, subscribe to those principles. And although we are facing less tension, I am sorry to say that I have not seen tangible evidence of Turkey changing not just its behaviour, but its beliefs; Turkey subscribing to International Law, subscribing to the International Law of the Sea, subscribing to UNCLOS.
And we have one benchmark in front of us to see the level of tensions in our overall region, and that is July 20th and President Erdogan’s commemoration of the invasion in Cyprus and of the occupation of the northern part of the Republic of Cyprus.
So, what will happen remains to be seen.
COORDINATOR:
What about stretching beyond the Eastern Mediterranean, and you mentioned freedom of navigation generally and, of course, one area of the world where this increasingly comes to the fore is in Asia and with respect to the Taiwan Straits and various of Greece’s allies active in asserting those rights of freedom of navigation. Is this something that Greece with this, as you say, largest commercial fleet in the world that Greece takes an interest in and is involved in any sense by proxy or how do you view these operations?
N. DENDIAS:
Well, let us be frank. We know our size. Greece is an 11-million people country, a member of the European Union but a small-medium sized country.
Having said that, for obvious reason we have a big interest in freedom of navigation. And UNCLOS, the application of UNCLOS is something we discuss with our friends all over the world.
Just week ago, Dr. Jaishankar, the Indian Foreign Minister was in Athens for two days and we are able to elaborate on this.
And I am looking forward to visiting Indonesia, to visiting Australia, to visiting Japan and again elaborate on the issues of the freedom of navigation.
For Greece this is not on à la carte basis. We follow a principled foreign policy, and our principles go according to International Law. UNCLOS is International Law.
So, we have a very good understanding with all countries of the world that have subscribed to UNCLOS, all the principles of UNCLOS.
And I have to say I was extremely happy that – something like 2-3 weeks ago – Secretary Blinken has has encouraged openly all countries to subscribe to UNCLOS even his own country, because as you know the USA although they accept the principles of UNCLOS they are not a subscriber to UNCLOS.
On the other hand, the European Union has subscribed to UNCLOS, not just the member states but the European Union itself. Therefore, UNCLOS is a part of the European Union acquis.
So, the answer is principles, Daniel, not an à la carte foreign policy, and principles is the International Law of the Sea, that is UNCLOS.
Thank you very much
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N. DENDIAS:
I have to say, we are at a lucky point in time, when one cannot call that daydreaming. I think it is something that is clearly doable, and if I had to bet my money, I would bet it on happening versus not happening.
And I have to say, the signs are there already, of this kind of understanding, and of a line of these countries towards a common future. And I am so happy that David clearly mentioned that the human mind is the future versus, for example, hydrocarbons.
Hydrocarbons, of course, are very important for humanity, they still provide, together with lignite, a very important amount of the energy we consume, but one thing is clear, this is not the future, this is clearly the past.
And if you allow me to say something about the economies, the humanity did not go past the Stone Age because we ran out of stone, but because the time had come to move to another age.
And it is clear now, that energy will be produced in a friendly, environmental way in the future, if we want to survive. So, this new approach and the fact that, let’s be honest, this overall region is privileged, we have sun and we have wind, and we have huge, huge areas in which we could put solar panels in order to create this energy, and be able to have energy that is cheaper, which will advance our economies. Not just the Greek economies, but the economies of the locals and the economies of the European Union.
So, I think we can look forward to a much better future, provided that societies arrive to a common understanding, provided that we understand clearly that the approach of the 19th century, the sort of gunboat diplomacy, the spheres of influence as perceived in the 19th century, have no role to play in the 21st century.
And I would like to say it clearly, in black and white so it is been heard all around: we don’t see Turkey as something that cannot belong to this architecture. We would like Turkey to belong to this architecture, to subscribe to this new approach. But they have to tell us, they have to make up their minds.
And I am sure and I am happy to report that there are elements in the Turkish society that look towards such an approach. And we should encourage those elements clearly, elements that believe in democracy, who share the values to move into the 21st century versus the gunboat diplomacy of the 19th century.
So, I don’t know if we are going to be here, probably we are not going to be here, but I believe that sooner than later in an Economist roundtable table the new reality presented by David would be the reality analyzed by those future guys.
COORDINATOR:
We have an outbreak of optimism in this panel.
JOURNALIST:
I wanted to ask the Minister a question. We are talking about security in this region, but sometimes somewhat harsher methods are needed, such as sanctions against Turkey. Do you think that the fact that the European Union not only has not imposed really severe sanctions but instead it will finance Turkey with 5 billion, will contribute to its compliance? Thank you.
N. DENDIAS:
Thank you for the question. I wish to be clear. With regards to Turkey, Greece pursued and still pursues a dual approach, an approach that in principle motivates Turkey to move in the direction desired, direction that we would like and that I described earlier; on the one hand, democratic values, the protection of human rights, respect for International Law and the Law of the Sea, and on the other hand a clear reminder that if this does not happen, the European Union should take action.
I will agree with you that the European Union, or to be more precise, certain member states of the European Union – by no means the majority of the member states – have been reluctant to follow this direction with courage and clarity.
But I must say that we have reached a level of understanding and I think it has become clear to the Turkish side that if it persists in the logic and practices of last year, either those during February and March regarding the migration issue, or those in August and other months regarding the Eastern Mediterranean, then sanctions are the only measure the European Union will have at its disposal to impose.
I would also like to say that I have indeed criticized certain policies of the European Union. But the Mitsotakis Government has a strongly pro-European perception. And this strongly pro-European perception comes with the understanding that the European Union is a huge historical project which is still in its infancy. It will take some time to complete this huge project described earlier.
So, this is something to hope for. We hope Turkey will make the right choice. And as Averof said earlier, there is an enormous goodwill on the part of the Greek Cypriot community to offer the hand of friendship to the Turkish Cypriot community in order to establish a united Cyprus that will also have huge beneficial consequences for our wider region.
With regards to the funds for the migration issue, I also want to be clear; even when Greek-Turkish relations were at their lowest point, Greece never prevented the assistance with funds – not to the state of Turkey, but to the unfortunate people who needed protection through the European Union, through non-governmental organizations.
Greece is a country that operates not on the basis of opportunistic interests or the in logic of pressure, but on the basis of its principles. The protection from misery and the protection of people in need are in the DNA of the European Union. We are not the ones who will prevent, we are the ones who will encourage this approach and assist.
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COORDINATOR:
We have a new American Administration, but not so new that we can’t already see some of the outlines of the policies of the Biden Administration and of Antony Blinken as Secretary of State.
So, I am wondering whether you can comment on what you would expect from the Biden Administration in this region, whether it is a continuity of the Trump Administration policy or whether you see changes in direction with the Biden administration. Perhaps I turn to you, Foreign Minister, in the first instance.
N. DENDIAS:
Well, thank you, Daniel, for us it is quite clear. We wish and we want more American presence in the region. Having said that, for reasons of justice, I would mention that Secretary Pompeo of the Trump Administration was quite attentive of this region, and I do not remember how many times I have met him in the 18 months that we were both in office.
But having said that, we need more United States, not less United States. We need more United States in the Balkans, in the Eastern Mediterranean. If I am allowed to say, it is something that we should be very careful with what is going on in the Balkans. The situation is much worse than perfect, and it does not catch, maybe the first page of the newspapers, but we should not allow it to come to the first page of the newspapers.
Then it is the Palestinian issue, in which as on the Balkans, let me say, the European Union and the present Administration work hand in hand together and for which an American initiative is always needed.
We should not wait for a new problem being manifested as we had a few weeks ago and then try to do something. America has the prime role in the Middle East and it needs to exercise that role. And also, we need the American presence in the overall region.
I think the USA is the one country in the world that could explain to Turkey that human rights and the rule of law is the way forward, the way that could create benefit for all. And if you allow me to say, for the overall region sometimes USA plays more than a role of a super power, they’ve been seen as both a country and an idea.
So, the American presence is needed and wanted in the overall region including the Gulf, and if I may to say even beyond the Gulf.
Thank you.