JOURNALIST: Minister, some of the countries you have recently visited have been and still are the playing field for other powers in the region – especially neighbouring Turkey, which is pursuing an expansionist, neo-Ottoman policy. In a recent speech, you described Turkey as a “regional spoiler trying to revive the neo-Ottoman ghost”. What was the climate you encountered?
N. DENDIAS: “It is true that some of the countries I have visited recently have been the ground for the Turkish narrative of “neo-Ottomanism” for years.
One of the most typical examples is Libya, which is directly affected by the presence of Turkish military forces, as well as mercenaries supported by it. Turkey, however, is trying to extend its influence to other countries of the world, in which it traditionally had no foothold, such as sub-Saharan Africa.
Two decades ago, Turkey had 11 Embassies in Africa. Today it has 43. However, the openings of our country, such as – for example – to sub-Saharan Africa, are not made solely for the purpose of containing Turkey’s policy.
Greece, a country without a colonial past, which seeks to promote its bilateral relations and multilateral cooperation on the basis of international law and in full respect of the UN Charter, is looking for natural partners around the world; partners who, like Greece, respect international law and wish to become poles of stability and prosperity in their wider region.
We receive a positive response to this approach. Turkey, however, is absent from our discussions. For example, during my recent visit to Rwanda, my contacts focused on a number of issues that had nothing to do with Turkey.
But even in countries where the Turkish presence is strong, to return to the example of Libya, Greece has managed to gain a foothold and be accepted as a factor of stability, as evidenced by my recent participation in the ‘Libya Stabilization Initiative’ Conference in Tripoli and, of course, the recent participation of Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis in the Paris Conference on Libya”.
JOURNALIST: Given Germany’s role in Europe, do you expect a different approach towards Turkey from the new government being formed in Berlin under Olaf Scholz?
N. DENDIAS: “Allow me to point out that it is too early to comment on the policy of the new German government before its members have even been appointed.
Taking into account that, as seems likely, there will be a coalition government between three parties, which in fact have opposing views on several issues, it is too early to make predictions about the foreign policy that the new government will pursue. My intention is to forge relations of understanding and cooperation with my new counterpart, as well as with all political forces in Germany. There are three issues that I will emphatically continue to raise.
Firstly, the sale of weapons systems, which entail the risk of upsetting the balance of power, not only in the Aegean, but also in the wider Eastern Mediterranean, and threaten our country, but also other countries in the region, such as – for instance – Egypt, Israel and, of course, Cyprus; especially the sale of the sophisticated T-214 submarines.
Secondly, the need for Germany to take a leading role, together with other countries, within the European Union in defending the principles and values of the latter in the face of Turkey’s ongoing provocative conduct and illegal actions. The record of the outgoing German government on this issue has been, to put it mildly, disappointing.
Thirdly, we want Germany to acknowledge the positive role that Greece is playing in developments in Libya, as France and Libya have done. Let me add here that it is almost certain that the new German government will be more critical of Turkey as regards the instrumentalization of the migrant issue, as well as the democratization process and the human rights situation”.
JOURNALIST: Since we are talking about Turkey, we have recently witnessed an escalation of Turkish provocative conduct in the Aegean and the Eastern Mediterranean. Many analysts believe that President Erdogan is betting on polarization for domestic reasons. Exploratory talks continue to take place periodically, but without any practical results. What do you expect from Turkey’s part?
N. DENDIAS: “Our strategic goals towards the neighbouring country can be summarized in one phrase: We do not want escalation, but we are not going to accept any attempt to impinge on our sovereignty and sovereign rights. At the same time, we want the settlement of the only dispute we have, that is, the delimitation of the continental shelf and the Exclusive Economic Zone in the Aegean and the Eastern Mediterranean on the basis of international law and especially the international law of the sea.
But we do not harbour any illusions. Unfortunately, Turkey refuses to accept the fundamental rules of international conduct and, at the same time, is developing a confrontational rhetoric that goes far beyond what could be diplomatically acceptable. But we will not fall into the trap of reacting spasmodically. We are constantly vigilant, building alliances with friends and partners, and strengthening our deterrent power. At the same time, however, as long as Turkey embraces international law, we are always willing for a constructive dialogue”.
JOURNALIST: Minister, in 2023 presidential elections will be held in the neighbouring country – with all that this implies regarding the political climate – while the year also marks the 100th anniversary of the Treaty of Lausanne. Do you believe President Erdoğan will raise the issue of its revision again?
N. DENDIAS: “Your question raises certain legal, but also political issues.
Firstly, there is no possibility of revising provisions that concern border demarcation. This would be contrary to the fundamental principle of international law ‘Pacta sunt servanda’ (agreements must be complied with).
Secondly, the Treaty of Lausanne has already been revised with regard to the status of the Straits with the Montreux Convention, which, however, did not affect the established borders at all.
Thirdly, the Treaty of Lausanne of 1923 was concluded between the Allies in World War I, including France, Italy and Great Britain, with the successor to the defeated Ottoman Empire, namely Turkey. None of the above countries, except of course Turkey, has expressed the slightest intention to request a revision of the Treaty. The Lausanne Treaty applies whether Turkey likes it or not”.
JOURNALIST: Greece, over time, has managed to turn a predominantly bilateral issue into a European one, with the result that Greek-Turkish issues have now become EU-Turkey issues. In practice, however, we see the EU to be reluctant to take substantial steps to address Turkish provocative conduct. Even when everyone agrees that Turkish actions are completely unacceptable and violate every notion of international law and common sense. How can you explain this?
N. DENDIAS: “You are right. The EU has proved slow when it comes to taking decisive action against Turkish provocative conduct.
This is related to the long-standing economic interests of certain member states, which have literally and figuratively invested in Turkey. At the same time, many of them believe that Turkey, a NATO ally for almost seven decades, must remain firmly anchored in the West.
But this stance is changing. And this is the result not only of Turkish actions, but mainly of our continuous efforts to forge bilateral relations of honesty and trust with the member states.
In my contacts I see growing concerns about Turkey’s stance, even from countries that have close relations with Ankara. The mere fact that a discussion on taking measures against Turkey’s unlawful conduct will start next week in the competent European institutions demonstrates that the climate is becoming more difficult for Turkey.
And of course, I would like to point out that, with regard to the instrumentalization of the migrant-refugee issue in particular, this is not an issue between specific member states and Turkey.
It is primarily an EU-Turkey issue and should be viewed in this light only. The external borders of Greece and Cyprus are also EU borders. At the same time, the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea is part of the European acquis. Therefore, non-compliance by Turkey is a European issue”.
JOURNALIST: The French Minister of Foreign Affairs was in Athens on Friday after quite some time. What does this visit signify?
N. DENDIAS: “We meet very often with my French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian, both in the framework of the European Union, but also on other occasions, such as the signing of the Strategic Partnership Agreement and most recently the Conference on Libya.
After all, the agreement with France was the result of two years of negotiations with my French counterpart.
However, his visit to Athens carried a dual symbolism. On the one hand, it underlined the start of the de facto implementation of this agreement and, on the other hand, it confirmed the full convergence of views on all key issues. France is a long-standing ally and a very close friend of our country. At the same time, the French Minister participated also in the quadrilateral meeting, along with our counterparts from Cyprus and Egypt. After the meeting we had in Cairo in January 2020, it was the first time we met again to sit at the same table. We confirmed that we share identical views on Turkey’s destabilizing role in the Eastern Mediterranean and Libya. And stressed that Turkey’s unlawfulness must not and cannot go unanswered. I would like to remind you that within a short period of time I had meetings with the Foreign Ministers of all five permanent members of the UN Security Council (USA, Russia, France, China, the United Kingdom), with three of whom I even signed, on behalf of the government of the Hellenic Republic, important bilateral agreements. This is yet another proof that nowadays Greece, through its upgraded international presence, has both a say and a role in regional developments”.
JOURNALIST: I would like us to focus on the Cyprus issue. Turkey now speaks only of ‘two states’ in Cyprus. Recently, President Erdoğan expressed confidence that he would soon invite the pseudo-state as a… ‘Turkish state’ to join the Organization of Turkic States. Can you be optimistic that Ankara will change its attitude and respect international law and UN resolutions?
N. DENDIAS: “My answer will be extremely short and simple: unfortunately, I am not optimistic about the prospects for a settlement of the Cyprus issue. The only framework is the one defined by the relevant UN Security Council resolutions and the European acquis. A discussion, let alone acceptance, of a solution that would fall outside this framework is completely out of the question.
Last April, I spent three difficult days locked in a basement in Geneva, at the informal meeting convened by the UN Secretary General with the participation of the Republic of Cyprus, the Turkish Cypriots and the three guarantor powers.
What I heard from the Turkish and Turkish Cypriot sides unfortunately made me completely pessimistic. The Turkish and by extension the Turkish Cypriot side insisted on a rhetoric that bears no relation to reality. Greece, always in close coordination with the Republic of Cyprus, will continue to work for the settlement of the Cyprus issue on the basis of a bizonal, bicommunal Federation, in accordance with the relevant decisions of the UN Security Council”.
JOURNALIST: I would also like to ask you, Minister, about the developments in North Macedonia. To what extent can they affect the implementation of the Prespa Agreement?
N. DENDIAS: “Obviously, out of principle, I am not going to comment on the internal developments in any country, let alone in a neighbouring one.
Of course, I should remind once again of a fundamental rule. In democratic societies, governments come and go, but states and the obligations they undertake remain. This is even more the case when it comes to international contractual obligations that continue to bind states independently of the succession of governments. Therefore, I will be clear: the Prespa Agreement is binding for both countries and we expect from the side of North Macedonia its full, consistent and in good faith implementation. That is a message I keep repeating to my interlocutors from this country”.